Help to identify Gauge 1 4-4-0 loco

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

Impressed by the response to Martin Langford's recent request to help identify a loco, may I also ask for similar assistance. It is a part built Gauge 1 4-4-0 tender loco which I bought a while ago. I am pretty sure it has Joy valve gear although I do not have all the components. I have searched far and wide but cannot find a trace of anything similar. If perchance it can be recognised a pointer as to where I might obtain plans would be appreciated.

Mick

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

bumpy wumpy

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I suggest as a starting point you measure the wheel spacing and diameters and provide a table of same with conversions to feet and inches using both 10mm and 3/8" scales. (NOT metric because train buffs with know these in imperial not metric)

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

Thanks Bazyle. The following dimensions may help.

Frames -front buffer to drawbar – model 11 5/8" – x3/8 scale = 31ft x10mm scale = 29ft 7"

Driving wheels diameter over treads – model 2 9/64" – x3/8 scale = 5ft 8" x10mm scale = 5ft 3"

Driving wheels between centres – model 3 9/16" – x3/8 scale = 9ft 5" x10mm scale = 9ft 1"

Bogies diameter over treads – model 1 11/64" x3/8 scale = 3ft 1" x10mm scale = 3ft

Bogies between centres – model 2 13/32" x3/8 scale = 6ft 5" x 10mm scale = 6ft 1"

I have rounded up the extrapolated figures to the nearest 1/2".

Mick

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

In the past LBSC would describe a loco in several sizes so it may be a model that is well known in 2 1/2" gauge but not in gauge 1 – also he would sometimes describe a loco and then in a later article give a few notes and drawings and a boiler design for a gauge 1 version. In those far off days getting castings produced or even buying ready made wheels or cylinders was possible where we need to qoote a design today.

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

Thanks Nick. You could well be right. I think the prototype 0f this one is pre-British Railways as the only 4-4-0 with 5ft8" wheels that I can find in the BR era is a GWR loco and this one is definitely not that. The work on this loco is pretty good in my opinion- better than mine- and I would be quite happy to have a go at "freelancing" it but the valve gear, Joy's I am sure, absolutely stumps me.

Mick

[John BaguleyParticipant @johnbaguley78655]

Hello Mick,

It could be a half sized version of LBSC's 'Miss Ten to Eight', his take on a North Eastern R1. The frames are the right shape.

John

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

And the Joy valve gear also suggests LBSC (the original was stephensons) so I can go with John's suggestion

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

By golly, I do believe you fellows have nailed it ! The outline looks spot on. Thanks for your assistance. If I can get hold of some plans I can get it off the shelf it has been sitting on for the last few years and get stuck in!

Mick

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Kennions can supply plans off the shelf for the 3 1/2" gauge Miss ten to eight, I bought a set last year when a chassis I started when I was 16 or 17 turned up in a box ,oiled up and put there when I married and left home in 1979! Bit of a shock as I'm an OAP now! Looks like you have a good start to a nice little locomotive there, plenty of help available from the G1 association, they do some good publications that may help, you could probably adopt the " Project " type boiler quite easily for that engine.

Dave

Edited By Dave Wootton on 03/08/2023 21:56:05

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

Good story that, Dave. I have no problems with boilers and I am very fond of the JVR type C which performs very well. As it happens the loco I am working on at the moment I have fitted with a JVR Type B which should be up and running shortly. But I digress. My sticking point is the valve gear which appears to be Joy's. What is the valve gear on the Kennions plans? I think the prototype D21 had Stephenson gear.

Mick

[Andrew CrowParticipant @andrewcrow91475]

Hi Mick, back in the nineteen seventies Don Young designed a 4F loco in 3 1/2 gauge and that used Joy valve gear which might help. It looks like you already have the weigh shaft, however you would need a reverser in the cab and corresponding reach rod. I think I may still have the original article and could possibly email you the appropriate pages if you are interested.

Andy.

[John BaguleyParticipant @johnbaguley78655]

Miss Ten to Eight has Joy valve gear so you can just scale down the dimensions of that. It looks as though you have some of the valve gear parts anyway. LBSC described Miss Ten to Eight in ME Vols 80 to 82 if you can access copies.

John

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Mick H, I have spares of these three volumes that John has mentioned, they are not all it the best condition, but all the information is readable, and volume 82 was half heartedly bound. You can have them for the price of postage, or you could collect them in person, just PM me if you are interested.

Regards Nick.

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

Andrew, John and Nicholas. thanks for those nuggets of information. I have sent Andrew and Nicholas each a pm.

Mick

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Hi Mick

If it's any help there should be some pics of my 3 1/2" Miss Ten to Eight chassis as it is now cleaned up ans a bit more work done on it to get it to a rolling chassis, tried to show the layout of the valve gear and the general shape of the frames. But do ignore the back of the frame from the blue line backwards, as I've grafted in an extra bit to make it more like the full size and to give room for a sight feed lubricator oil tank. As an aside the parts had been dipped and sprayed in Shell Ensis fluid when packed and it had perfectly protected it in an outside wooden potting shed for over 40 years, an absolute pig to get off solved by getting it dipped in an engine builders hot tank. Worst bit was cleaning up the brass tender parts for soldering together, they had not been protected.

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

You did some good work before you put it in its box all those years ago. That Shell Ensis did a good job as well.

Mick

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Thanks Mick, I have re-made some of it, teenage me was not quite as fussy as old man me!

I couldn't afford the castings at the time, so the hornblocks were steel and looked quite clunky, so I replaced them with castings, and bought the wheel castings from Kennions, but most of it is original. The cylinder block is cast iron made from the overarm of a Cincinnati mill that was being scrapped. At one point I may remake that in gunmetal as there is no room for cylinder drains as the bogie is really close. I may never finish it, too many projects, but it looks better on the shelf than a pile of bits, and as I look at the parts I remember the people I worked with who trained me and oversaw the work, I learned a lot. After all these years I clearly remember the conversation we had as I was putting the crank axle together, it was about the future of engineering in Britain – and they were right!

Dave

Edited By Dave Wootton on 05/08/2023 08:06:14

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