Help me choose a lathe to suit my hobby

[MicrobikeParticipant @microbike]

Bazyle a mill is indeed on my list and determining what mill has been much easier than the lathe. In fact I might buy a small mill and a small lathe just to test the waters a bit as has already been suggested Both machines however imperfect will advance my building to another level.

For example a big challenge I face at the moment is removing carefully the moulded bolt heads and replacing them with scale bolts, screws and cap screws. Below a plastic part where I need to remove all the moulded screw/bolt heads

And this is how it looks with real cap screws and bolts added (bottom part is painted – note parts are from two different bikes though)

At the moment I do it mostly with a 1mm end mill bit held in a pin vice but the results are less than perfect. Therefore having a small mill with a compound table would already be an improvement. The Proxxon MF 70 Milling Machine fits the bill is only £300 but there is one tiny problem. The plastic parts are moulded styrene with a very low melting point and the Proxxon mill's lowest speed is 5,000 which will literally melt the plastic in a millionth of a nano second

Therefore a WARCO WM 14 MILLING MACHINE WITH DRO is a better option since its lowest speed is 50 rpm and the low power at this speed is not an option. True the WARCO is three time the price of the Proxxon but the model kit is over £200 pounds so if I mess up a part then it's really expensive to correct

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Microbike on 11/09/2017 00:58:22:

Proxxon mill's lowest speed is 5,000 which will literally melt the plastic in a millionth of a nano second

.

Here you go. **LINK** That one will reduce to a low spindle speed and is I would think a sturdier machine than the proxxon.

Nick

[Gray62Participant @gray62]

Microbike,

I am another satisfied and happy Warco user, I've had a WM250V for almost 3 years and a GH1330 for about 10 years, both are worked hard and have given trouble free service. Service from Warco has always been very good. I live fairly close so I often drop in if I need something and they are always most helpful. In fact I am always surprised when I read on here or anywhere else that someone has had poor service from them.

I have to agree with Nick_G regarding the Proxxon machines, overpriced and over rated in all aspects – just my opinion.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Microbike on 10/09/2017 20:19:21:

Mick good to hear your positive experience on WARCO what is their service like? Mixed reviews in the forums?

I made 3 or 4 calls during the guarantee period. Once I had trouble getting hold of anybody who knew anything, but there was a major ME show about to start so most personnel were away setting that up.

I had a bad jam-up in the first month when I inadvertently started longitudinal feed instead of crossfeed against a locked saddle. The leadscrew shearpin didn't break as it should have, but what did was one of the keyed sleeve bushes in the headstock geartrain. It's probably unreasonable to expect Warco people to have sussed that, and it took me a while to find it, but when I did they sent me a couple of replacements immediately.

When I phoned up about a stripped thread in one of the T-nuts for the vertical slide baseplate, again replacements arrived within a day or two.

When the crosslide leadscrew shearpin fell into the apron gearbox and jammed it solid – this time the main leadscrew shearpin did break – they gave me working advice on how to get the apron and leadscrew off, and I could clear the jam and fix the damage with nothing more than a few inches of 1/8" diameter brass. I had an email exchange with them about that, describing the problem and its solution, and they sent me a gift token. Not quite sure why, but I got some milling cutters out of it. The lathe was well out of guarantee by that time.

Overall I'd say their service is very good to excellent from my experience.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I don't think Michael was far off the mark with the Sherline suggestion, easily do the small stuff and will also handle the rims though may take a little longer than hogging it out on a bigger machine. You only have to look at the work of Jerry Kieffer done on these machine to see they are capable so if you want to make a working engine for your bikes it can be done on a Sherline.

Back to the original question, I have only used Axminster for woodworking machines over the last 20yrs or so, never had a problem so don't know about aftersales. They have really only upped their involvement in the engineering side of things in the last couple of years so may not be able to offer the help and advice that an importer of the same machines for many years can offer.

The 290 sounds a bit big for what you want, 200 to 250mm swing would be more than adequate and give you money to spend on a mill. As Nick says I have had a 280 size warco for about 8 years now and only had a couple of minor parts need replacement – brushes and a £5 speed pot.

Mill wise an SX2P, or SX2.7 would also be worth looking at, I have had the slightly larger X3 from the same factory for 11 years now and no problems, again there are other suppliers than Axminster who generally seem to sell the same Sieg machines for less. I've not used the Warco mills so won't offer an opinion.

You seem to be looking at machines with DROs consider buying these separately as you may get a better deal than the "package" some are fitted here in the UK and you are just paying for someone to fit them for you, it is not that hard to do.

I'm about to do a review of an SX2.7 Mill from ARC and having seen the cost of the tooling and accessories that came with it you should set aside a good proportion of your budget for all the bits you will need to get the most out of the machines.

J

Edited By JasonB on 11/09/2017 08:39:23

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Having seen the progression of this thread … I remain convinced that you would be well-served by the little Sherline lathes and mills.

I've never owned one, but there is something pleasing about about the integrity of the design, and [it appears] the care that goes into manufacturing, that would put them high on my selection list if I was buying new.

Yes, they are small; and some details look unsophisticated, but people do great work with them.

MichaelG.

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[descends from soapbox]

.

Edit: nice to see Jason's post … we were typing concurrently.

 

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/09/2017 08:48:46

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Andrew,

I am indeed about to review the SC4, although the article is going to be more an explanation of what a lathe is and how it works aimed at beginners.

I am not convinced that a mini-lathe might not suit you better, if you are keeping yourself to 1:6 models. For those familiar with these things the SC4 is a bit larger in capacity than a S7, being an inch greater in swing and between centres (although not having a gap) and pretty similar in terms of overall bulk, weight and rigidity. This might be a bit OTT for your needs.

Neil

[MicrobikeParticipant @microbike]

Posted by Nick_G on 11/09/2017 06:03:33:

Posted by Microbike on 11/09/2017 00:58:22:

Proxxon mill's lowest speed is 5,000 which will literally melt the plastic in a millionth of a nano second

.

Here you go. **LINK** That one will reduce to a low spindle speed and is I would think a sturdier machine than the proxxon.

Nick

Hello Nick

Thanks for the link and you are right it's variable speed and can get down to very low RPM – plus it's not expensive at all

Cheers

Andrew

[MicrobikeParticipant @microbike]

Hello Graeme W

Very reassuring to have your feedback as I must say I do like the WARCO machines. Is the a particular individual at WARCO that you would recommend. I did not see them listed for the Midlands show? it's not urgent as I am still researching on the lathe

I do like the little mill Nick recommend as its small enough to go on my modelling workbench and is not expensive at all. Plus it will help me to mill away moulded plastic very accurately

Thanks for advice, much appreciated

Cheers

Andrew

[MicrobikeParticipant @microbike]

Hello Nick B1

Thanks for you feedback on WARCO and I must say its good to hear how positive they were and support offered

Gift voucher too – impressive gesture to be sure

It is very reassuring to read, thank you. I am keen on a WARCO lathe as I thing the overall package is very good

However I need to organise the workshop and see how to reposition my two real motorbikes and do some upgrading before buying the lathe . Wife doesn't mind a little mill on the table to mill away plastic but she draws the line about a lathe in the house – fair enough I think

Cheers

Andrew

[MicrobikeParticipant @microbike]

Hello JasonB

Thanks for the feedback and advice on the mill. I will look forward to you review. I do also like the two mills you recommend which are bigger and would need to go into the workshop

It still might be an idea to start will the smaller version for milling the plastic parts on my modelling room and the with some experience behind me look at a bigger mill for the engineering workshop

When it comes to airbrushing I do use different ones for different applications so I have one particular airbrush that I use just for chrome painting as its the only one that give me the mirror finish

Point taken on the DRO I thought it was the other way round – learn something new every day

Cheers

Andrew

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

That little mill has a weak spot of design in the way the vertical column is attached. Also a number of smaller machines lathes and mills are aluminium is places they shouldn't be.

Have you looked at Cowells lathes and BCA mills both of which are highly prized by clockmakers?

You might also look at pantograph engravers (Taylor Hobson, Alexander, Deckel) which can be used a milling machines (although the OEM fixture for that will be unobtainable a Potts spindle can be rigged up). If you have the room a die sinker (Alexander, Gorton, Deckel) is even better. These are all being replaced by CNC engravers so there are masses around where ten years ago I could only find 3 mentions of an Alexander 3A on the entire web (one being the ME index which once had an article with no detail just someone saying he had used one)

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bazyle on 11/09/2017 12:57:43:

Have you looked at Cowells lathes and BCA mills both of which are highly prized by clockmakers?

You might also look at pantograph engravers (Taylor Hobson, Alexander, Deckel) which can be used a milling machines …

.

Admirable suggestions, Bazyle … I have both a BCA and a Taylor Hobson

I didn't mention either, because I thought Andrew was looking to buy new.

When I worked at Kodak, the 'Development Workshop' used to cut all the prototype levers for camera mechanisms using simple hardboard patterns and a 10:1 reduction on the pantograph.

Engraving machines do crop-up quite cheaply, but good BCAs usually fetch a very good price.

… and a less-than-good one could become a major restoration project.

MichaelG.

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P.S. … I've just checked the Tenga Engineering Machine Tools site

 They're listing a couple of nice BCAs

http://www.tengamachinetools.com/TMT0513/Turret_Milling_Machines_Range.html

'though I suspect the price might exceed Andrew's indicated budget. 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/09/2017 14:54:09

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/09/2017 14:56:41

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Microbike on 11/09/2017 12:33:57:

I do like the little mill Nick recommend as its small enough to go on my modelling workbench and is not expensive at all. Plus it will help me to mill away moulded plastic very accurately

Hi Andrew,

I have read your thread in detail. I would go along with the general comments on here which suggest that you consider a small mill and a small lathe. However, in your particular case, I would strongly suggest that you visit the supplier of the machine you intend to buy, to go through the various aspects of the machine, before you start to use it. This will help you immensely, especially as you are coming into this from a non-engineering background.

Most of the manuals, especially of Chinese origin which come with the machines are too basic for a total beginner. This is the way it is. If you are considering to buy the SX1L from ARC, I would strongly suggest that you come and see us. The time you spend with us going through various features and limitations of a machine (say about 30 mins.), will definitely save you time and possible future hassle.

In your particular case, if a seller is unable to show you/go through the features of the machine, you may want to walk away. You will save yourself and the seller future hassle. I am talking from experience.

Also, your visit works both ways. You mentioned earlier: 'Then I thought SIEG till I read the mini lathe book by Fenner and that really put me off – so many quality issues – but to be fair it only costs about £750'. This is a concern for ARC, especially as the idea of such books and similar modern guides is to be 'helpful'. After discussions, either or both – seller and buyer can decide if the machines we sell are the right suit for the buyer, or if the buyer would be better served by a Proxxon or Shierline. It is well known for us to turn away business and direct certain buyers elsewhere, based on a buyers knowledge, experience and expectations.

The extra price you may pay for a Sheirline or Proxxon may mean that you may not have to do any fettling. Regardless of what anyone says, if you buy ANY Chinese machine, you will need to consider fettling, based on your knowledge. To be honest, about 70% of new hobby buyers are from non-engineering backgrounds now a days. Most get on with the new Chinese machines without much bother, regardless of knowing or not knowing what to look out for. Many don't bother doing any fettling. Either they don't know, or the machine meets their needs as it comes even if it may need fettling. A small percentage get carried away with their expectation of precision – be it based on price or otherwise, especially after reading stuff in some old books which may be less relevant to modern machines, or watching You Tube – 50% of which is open to question due to the lack of knowledge by the presenter.

If you have any doubts, you have the budget, and you don't have the time to think about mods or fettling, and if you want a great manual, consider the Sherline and Proxxon.

Hope above information is of help.

Ketan at ARC.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Picking up on Ketan's point about fettling, my experience is that all my Far Eastern kit worked out of the box and it all benefited from some fettling. As 'fettling' might sound difficult, you may find it useful if I list what I actually did to a Mini-lathe and it's bigger replacement.

Mini-lathe:

• Checked the lathe using advice on from various Mini-lathe websites. Didn't find anything alarming, actually much better than expected.
• Cleaned and lubricated.
• Adjusted the gibs, later removing and polishing them to improve smoothness (I'm not sure it was worth the effort!)
• Added a guard to stop swarf getting into the electrics via the leadscrew.
• Increased the depth of the holes used to register the High/Low gear-change lever.
• Added a lock to the cross-slide.
• Tightened the tailstock cam-lock adjuster.
• Added a washer to the top slide leadscrew assembly to remove some slack.
• Slightly adjusted the height of the right hand leadscrew bearing to improve leadscrew/half-nut alignment.
• Smoothed the block inside the tailstock to make it easier to realign the tailstock after cutting a taper.

WM280:

• Checked specifications against the supplied calibration certificate (all OK)
• Cleaned up and lubricated. Found nothing out of order during first inspection.
• Polished the block inside one of the handles to stop it binding when setting zero
• Took 1mm off the end of the bolts used to bolt the rear tool-post to the table.
• Had some intermittent cut-outs. Tightened the chuck guard safety switch fixing bolts & the guard spindle bolt. Likely these had come loose in transit .
• About six months later got an intermittent starting problem and traced it to a loose terminal screw on the contactor. (All the other electrical connections were tight.)
• Fitting Chucks and compounding gear wheels I found initially very tight. I eased the gears, but the chucks fitted properly on the register after being dismounted a few times.
• Put roofing felt under the lathe stand to reduce vibration noticable at about 600rpm.
• Replaced the Motor/VFD cable with a better shielded type to improve EMC. (This makes no difference to the operation of the lathe.)

Things I didn't like about the mini-lathe:

• Gear changing for threading can be awkward. The banjo has two radius arms and access to one of the fixing bolts is limited.
• The anti-backlash mechanism on the cross-slide is fiddly and tends to come loose.
• Did 90% of what I wanted but I realised it was too small.
• Small fingers very helpful when changing chucks – there's not much space between the flange and the headstock to get at the nuts.
• The tailstock tended to slip whilst doing heavy drilling. (Mine had a camlock, don't know if the bolt-down types also slip.)

Things I don't like about the WM280:

• Noisy cooling fan on the VFD
• Still best to have small fingers when changing chucks.
• Limited range of the gearbox before you have to change gears on the banjo. Although miles better than a mini-lathe, gear changes are still tiresome and messy.
• Swapping belts to move between the High and Low speed ranges
• Wish it had a clutch

That's my experience. Note that I didn't have any problems with the fundamental accuracy of either lathe and that the breakdowns were trivial. Bottom line is the lathes are made down to a price. The components are of reasonable quality for hobby use, but the lathes are put together in a hurry. You get a lot of metal for your money but very likely there will tidying up to do. Some people are unlucky, or as Ketan mentioned, a few have unrealistic expectations. Most seem to get on with them without ructions.

Dave

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

About ten years ago I bought a Warco lathe, the BV20 which has a geared headstock, I chose this model because I was wary of an electronic speed control having heard some horror stories about the fragility of speed control boards, fortunately these components appear to be much more robust nowadays. The BV20 has six speeds through the integral geared headstock, the only drawback was the noise from the gears, I mentioned this on a visit to Warco when the twelve month warranty was nearly expired and without question they arranged to exchange the lathe at no cost. Unfortunately the noise level on the exchange machine was only marginally better, ear defenders do help to attenuate it. I checked the gears in the headstock and it would appear the noise comes from excess backlash between the meshing gears, it would appear that if the shaft centre distances are correct then there are problems with PCD of the gears as produced. The lathe is a Chinese machine built to a budget and consequently you don't get hardened ground gears within that budget so I live with it. In the ten years that I have owned it I have only replaced a faulty NVR switch which failed after about seven years, during this time the lathe has done everything asked of it, albeit a bit noisily. I cannot fault Warco for their service and wouldn't hesitate to recommend them, you have to remember though that Chinese machines are built to budget and are not Myfords or Rolls Royces but they enable a lot of us to pursue our chosen hobbies for a very modest outlay.

Dave

[Gordon TarlingParticipant @gordontarling37126]

My 2p worth. Do try to get over to Arc Euro if you possibly can – they will go out of their way to help you.

Before I bought a lathe, I considered many different makes and concluded that Proxxon lathes are really glorified, overpriced toys that IMHO aren't capable of any serious work. I had a Sherline with many accessories for a while, but found it quite limiting for the type of work that I wanted to do. I also had a Hobbymat MD65 for a while – this was a more capable lathe, though I felt that the bed design was somewhat lacking, so I sold that. I then bought my present lathe which is an Emco Compact 8 – I was lucky in that I managed to find a little used one in good condition for a reasonable price. I'm very pleased with its accuracy and capabilities, it really only lacks the ready availability of certain accessories. I wouldn't normally recommend you buy a used lathe without some experience behind you, or a friend with you who does have that experience. If you buy new, then you at least get some form of warranty. Good luck in your quest!

[MicrobikeParticipant @microbike]

Hello Michael G

You are quite right my preference is to buy new as I am not sure I know enough to evaluate and test a second hand machine

Checked the BCA mill but out of my price range

Thanks fir all the tips and advice much appreciated

Cheers

Andrew

[MicrobikeParticipant @microbike]

Hello Ketan

Thanks for your suggestions I will try and visit your shop as I do intend to see the mill and large before I make a purchase

I am planning to visit the Midlands Show in October and there is another show in London which I will also visit

I don't think the Proxxon are worth the money

I have been studying and reading up on Shetland and although more expensive they will do everything required for static scale modelling – but they are limited in the engineering side that I mentioned at the start of this thread. I would like to make a number of the projects in the "complete lathe course" and the complete mill course as I think these are good wys to gain experence and revive old skill that have been dormant for many years

As mentioned st the beginning of the post lathe and milling was part of my apprenticeship and I am not a total novice but I would still classify myself as a beginner

Cheers

Andrew

[MicrobikeParticipant @microbike]

Hello Dave

Thank you for a very informative narrative I think I could manage half of what you listed and I must say I do like the Warco VM280 I think it's a very good package for the money

I think I have read enough now to realise that there is a quality difference between WARCO and say a Shetland and that the Warco should be considered a part assembled kit that requires finishing off by the owner. I can do some of this and I think the tests covered in the "complete lathework book are all quite easy to to

I have managed to restore a few motorcycles and I do have a mechanic background so I am not too worried if I need to fix a few things or make improvements and adjustments. My expectations have certainly be well aligned by the feedback on this discussion

Thanks for all the really useful info which I have coped out and filed away in my workshop book

Cheers

Andrew

[MicrobikeParticipant @microbike]

Hello Gordon

Thanks for really useful feedback. I too concur that the Proxxon is to expensive for what it does the Sherline is a much better and cheaper option

Encourage is also very nice but might be out of my price range I need to check them out though. How did you find the Emco?

I have downloaded all the Sherline brochures and privelust so gonna do some maths and see what it will cost me. Need to get a number of accessories at the start eg chucks steadies etc. Let's see how that turns out

Cheers

Andrew

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi Andrew,

I am about to say things which are going to sound controversial.

You state: 'I have been studying and reading up on Shetland and although more expensive they will do everything required for static scale modelling – but they are limited in the engineering side that I mentioned at the start of this thread. I would like to make a number of the projects in the "complete lathe course" and the complete mill course as I think these are good wys to gain experence and revive old skill that have been dormant for many years'

You state: 'I think I have read enough now to realise that there is a quality difference between WARCO and say a Shetland and that the Warco should be considered a part assembled kit that requires finishing off by the owner. I can do some of this and I think the tests covered in the "complete lathework book are all quite easy to to'

** If you want to make things which are in Workshop Practice Books WPS34 – lathe and 35 – Mill, well and good. Using them as a very loose guide – okay, but you will need to avoid using them as a 'matter of fact' point of reference or strictly 'A Complete Course'. This would be wrong due to the relevance of such books if applied strictly to modern day hobby lathes and mills. I say this with respect to the author of the said books. Tied into this, to consider a Warco or any other metal working lathe to be a part assembled kit that requires finishing off by the owner – is again a wrong conclusion. Such machines do the job which they are made for, out of the box. If/how/when you choose to adjust/fettle them to meet your precision requirements, that is up to you, and it should be based on knowledge and experience.

I know what I have said above will be meet with disagreement in some cases, but I stand by what I have said.

Ketan at ARC.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I have to chime in here,. I think Ketan has understated the point a bit.

The 'part assembled kit' is an easy criticism to say and repeat, but it really is very far from the truth.

A lathe is more like an electric guitar than an electronic keyboard. Both should and will work out of the box, but you won't ever need to open up the keyboard and adjust it. Straight out of the box that new guitar will be way out of tune and the action may resemble a cheese grater. As you learn to play your guitar and develop your own style and approach you might adjust the action. You might change the strings to suit you and as result need to change the intonation and adjust the truss rod. You may want to adjust the pickups. You might swap out knobs or potentiometers, rewire the switches or even fit new or additional pickups.

Does any of this mean the original guitar was substandard or a 'kit of parts'? Of course not.

In just the same way, the imported hobby lathes of today, if bought from a reputable source, WILL work out of the box, subject to some modest assembly (such as fitting handles removed so they don't get damaged in transit) and a quick going over to check all is secure and that the movements are shake free and without binding.

Interesting the Sherline (I assume you mean Sherline not Shetland) lathes are an exception to this as they do come dis-assembled into smaller units, requiring to to fit (typically) motor, speed control and cross-slide yourself. Of course an advantage of this is it makes you more aware of the various adjustments needed to set up the lathe.

One of the problems is that the purchasers of cheaper imports tend to be beginners. Things simply needing adjustment are perceived as 'problems'. An experienced purchaser of a top end lathe wouldn't dream of using it before at least checking such adjustments, and will put them right almost without thinking about it, so they never get raised as problems.

Ultimately the large volume of imported entry level machines reflects large numbers of inexperienced entry-level users. One of the roles of a forum like this and magazines like MEW is to make sure these users realise that most of the issues with a new machine are down to two things – lack of experience and the different circumstances and approach of every user.

I think you should take Ketan's advice and visit a supplier and seek some advice and look at machines of various sizes first hand. Could you choose which of two guitars will suit you best by looking at pictures and reading their specs?

Neil

[MicrobikeParticipant @microbike]

Hello Ketan

Thank you for your feedback and pints well made. I don't intend to buy anything before seeing the real deal and at least spoken to the supplier. Once I see the machines in "the flesh" I can make up my own mind about what I would like to spend my hard earned money on. I have been saving for a long time so I want to make an informed choice. It's one of the reasons for starting this thread.

It is reassuring to know that the machines will work out of the box. I think the checking your lathe exercises in WPS34 are a good start to making sure your machine is right and also getting to grips with the hobby.

Cheers

Andrew

[MicrobikeParticipant @microbike]

Hello Neil

The guitar analogy is a good one and point made. I have absolutely no intention of buying anything without seeing the machine in the flesh and meeting the suppliers, but practically I can't see everything so I do need to do some shortlisting. I am planning to visit the Midlands (Oct) and London (2018) Shows to see as much variety as I can. I will most likely have to make a couple of supplier trips as well.

But the support I have received from this forum has been invaluable as I have found out which makes I simply can't afford, I have had reassurance from users on models I am interested in so my shortlist is already getting more refined. I will most likely buy new that way I can get support from a supplier as I am not sure I could judge a second hand machine adequately

I have subscribed to MEW as I now know that a few relevant reviews are in the pipeline.

I have a checklist of adjustments should I choose to do them (I may do some but not all)

So my quest continues – I have been saving for these machines for a long time and studying all my options is part of the fun and learning the hobby.

At the end of the day, my models will reflect my skill set. I could buy the perfect lathe or mill but that does not mean I can use them to their max capacity because I don't have the skill set yet. Like the model Harley Davidson fuel tank which is to 1:6 scale that I posted earlier in this thread is custom painted with a very simple single action airbrush illustrates the point. Basic tools in the hand of an expert produce good results yet the most amazing tools in the hands of a beginner will not necessarily produce the same results.

The support and advise I have received is most welcome and much appreciated THANK YOU EVERYONE

Cheers

Andrew

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