Hello from Norfolk

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Having finally got round to looking at a map, it looks like Kings Lynn is the nearest.

Howard

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

A belated welcome to the forum, David.

Neil

[David GWParticipant @davidgw13951]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 07/01/2020 23:01:47:

David,

Is it a steel boiler or copper? If it's steel and you have no certification whatsoever (material certs or welder qualification certs) even you may struggle to get it certificated. Copper is not so much of an issue but depending on the testing route you choose it's likely the cladding will have to come off.

Paul.

I’m not sure yet what it’s made of and tbh I’m not entirely sure how relevant boiler certification would be as I have no plans to run it publicly? In my head it was a case of pressure testing it to beyond its normal operating pressure to make sure it’s safe and if it leaks giving it to a boiler expert to mend but I’m happy to be corrected.

[David GWParticipant @davidgw13951]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/01/2020 17:52:04:

A belated welcome to the forum, David.

Neil

Thanks Neil, nice active forum this! 👍🏻

[David GWParticipant @davidgw13951]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 08/01/2020 14:23:55:

Having finally got round to looking at a map, it looks like Kings Lynn is the nearest.

Howard

Thank you for your trouble I’ll look into it!

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[David GWParticipant @davidgw13951]

Posted by 34046 on 08/01/2020 18:26:10:

Posted by David GW on 08/01/2020 18:02:36:

Posted by Paul Kemp on 07/01/2020 23:01:47:

David,

Is it a steel boiler or copper? If it's steel and you have no certification whatsoever (material certs or welder qualification certs) even you may struggle to get it certificated. Copper is not so much of an issue but depending on the testing route you choose it's likely the cladding will have to come off.

Paul.

I’m not sure yet what it’s made of and tbh I’m not entirely sure how relevant boiler certification would be as I have no plans to run it publicly? In my head it was a case of pressure testing it to beyond its normal operating pressure to make sure it’s safe and if it leaks giving it to a boiler expert to mend but I’m happy to be corrected.

David – no certs required for privare running. Copper is invariably the norm for a 2 inch Minnie, see SRS website for an identical model currently for sale. I test my boilers to 2 times WP so you are correct in your thinking.

Trust all is good for you when tested.

Bill

Thanks Bill, I basically took the risk because the price was right and obviously I hope it’s ok but worst case scenario is I’ve slightly overpaid for a heap of Minnie parts, it will be very disappointing but not life ending if you see what I mean. I was told but it’s owner it had been built around 20yrs ago by an experienced model TE builder but has only ever been run on air. My plan is to have her up and running (steam) for this year then look into new paint and fine fettling over the next winter. I’ll do some searches on here for testing info. David.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by David GW on 08/01/2020 18:02:36:

Posted by Paul Kemp on 07/01/2020 23:01:47:

David,

Is it a steel boiler or copper? If it's steel and you have no certification whatsoever (material certs or welder qualification certs) even you may struggle to get it certificated. Copper is not so much of an issue but depending on the testing route you choose it's likely the cladding will have to come off.

Paul.

I’m not sure yet what it’s made of and tbh I’m not entirely sure how relevant boiler certification would be as I have no plans to run it publicly? In my head it was a case of pressure testing it to beyond its normal operating pressure to make sure it’s safe and if it leaks giving it to a boiler expert to mend but I’m happy to be corrected.

David,

If you just run it on your own property where no-one else is at risk you don't need certification or insurance. If you do want to insure it you can do that for theft and damage without a certificate but to insure it for running if you did want to take it anywhere then a certificate will be required.

Testing basically is 2 X WP initial hydraulic shell test to check the integrity of the boiler structure (in combination with a visual inspection to verify correct construction). Followed by a 1.5 X WP hydraulic test once built up to verify the boiler fittings. Followed by a steam accumulation test to ensure the safety valves relieve and maintain pressure with any rise in pressure not being more than 10% of WP. Under the club scheme the 1.5 X WP hydraulic is repeated every 2 years for a steel boiler or every 4 years for copper with an annual cold examination and steam test for both. Model Engineering Societies often provide this service FOC to members. Look out for the boiler code (Orange book!).

Alternative is a commercial boiler inspector although not all are keen on small copper boilers. Test and examination routine is broadly the same with the exception the 1.5 hydraulic is usually valid for 10 years in combination with the annual cold exam and steam test. Can be quite expensive for a small model though!

As others have said it is likely to be copper in 2" scale but no absolute guarantees as I have a 2" scale Fowler Ploughing engine (granted a large 2" scale model) with a steel boiler and copper tubes!

All the best,

Paul.

[David GWParticipant @davidgw13951]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 08/01/2020 21:17:12:

Posted by David GW on 08/01/2020 18:02:36:

Posted by Paul Kemp on 07/01/2020 23:01:47:

David,

Is it a steel boiler or copper? If it's steel and you have no certification whatsoever (material certs or welder qualification certs) even you may struggle to get it certificated. Copper is not so much of an issue but depending on the testing route you choose it's likely the cladding will have to come off.

Paul.

I’m not sure yet what it’s made of and tbh I’m not entirely sure how relevant boiler certification would be as I have no plans to run it publicly? In my head it was a case of pressure testing it to beyond its normal operating pressure to make sure it’s safe and if it leaks giving it to a boiler expert to mend but I’m happy to be corrected.

David,

If you just run it on your own property where no-one else is at risk you don't need certification or insurance. If you do want to insure it you can do that for theft and damage without a certificate but to insure it for running if you did want to take it anywhere then a certificate will be required.

Testing basically is 2 X WP initial hydraulic shell test to check the integrity of the boiler structure (in combination with a visual inspection to verify correct construction). Followed by a 1.5 X WP hydraulic test once built up to verify the boiler fittings. Followed by a steam accumulation test to ensure the safety valves relieve and maintain pressure with any rise in pressure not being more than 10% of WP. Under the club scheme the 1.5 X WP hydraulic is repeated every 2 years for a steel boiler or every 4 years for copper with an annual cold examination and steam test for both. Model Engineering Societies often provide this service FOC to members. Look out for the boiler code (Orange book!).

Alternative is a commercial boiler inspector although not all are keen on small copper boilers. Test and examination routine is broadly the same with the exception the 1.5 hydraulic is usually valid for 10 years in combination with the annual cold exam and steam test. Can be quite expensive for a small model though!

As others have said it is likely to be copper in 2" scale but no absolute guarantees as I have a 2" scale Fowler Ploughing engine (granted a large 2" scale model) with a steel boiler and copper tubes!

All the best,

Paul.

Thank you for the concise info Paul. Have to admit I didn’t realise the official testing was as involved as that, is there a rudimentary pressure test I can perform myself on an amateur basis for my own safety/peace of mind prior to steaming in private?

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

David,

Regs are all based on PSSR (pressure system safety regulations) for commercial stuff. Getting hold of a copy of the Model Boiler Test Code will give you a bit of interesting reading and insight. I am pretty sure copies are posted on the net or you can buy a copy from your local model engineering society. I think they cost our club £1 a copy from the federations and we sell them to members at cost.

If the engine is all assembled I would just pump it up to 1.5 X WP, hold it for 5 or 10 mins and look for leaks in the critical places (inside firebox, stays on the outer firebox, smokebox tube plate). It's not unheard of for regulators to leak on a cold hydraulic test so don't necessarily expect to just pump it up to pressure, stop pumping and for the pressure to hold. It is not necessarily a failure if there are leaks and you have to keep pumping to maintain the test pressure – what is important is where the leaks are and the implications of such! You could if you wanted go to 2 X WP but if it's a copper boiler particularly and it's still relatively soft (although if built 20 years ago it's likely to have some age hardening) you can do unintended damage particularly if you don't know for sure from documentation what the WP was actually designed to be! Taking up to a higher pressure does not automatically make it a better, safer test!

If you want to check if it's copper or steel a quick and easy rough test is run over it with a magnet! If the inner firebox and tube plate are non magnetic it's obviously not steel and likely copper (doesn't rule out some grades of stainless though – stainless boilers are not testable or certifiable under the club scheme in the UK!). No real substitute for the mk1 eye ball though and a good careful visual exam.

Good luck and don't blow yourself up!

Paul.

[David GWParticipant @davidgw13951]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 08/01/2020 23:25:19:

David,

Regs are all based on PSSR (pressure system safety regulations) for commercial stuff. Getting hold of a copy of the Model Boiler Test Code will give you a bit of interesting reading and insight. I am pretty sure copies are posted on the net or you can buy a copy from your local model engineering society. I think they cost our club £1 a copy from the federations and we sell them to members at cost.

If the engine is all assembled I would just pump it up to 1.5 X WP, hold it for 5 or 10 mins and look for leaks in the critical places (inside firebox, stays on the outer firebox, smokebox tube plate). It's not unheard of for regulators to leak on a cold hydraulic test so don't necessarily expect to just pump it up to pressure, stop pumping and for the pressure to hold. It is not necessarily a failure if there are leaks and you have to keep pumping to maintain the test pressure – what is important is where the leaks are and the implications of such! You could if you wanted go to 2 X WP but if it's a copper boiler particularly and it's still relatively soft (although if built 20 years ago it's likely to have some age hardening) you can do unintended damage particularly if you don't know for sure from documentation what the WP was actually designed to be! Taking up to a higher pressure does not automatically make it a better, safer test!

If you want to check if it's copper or steel a quick and easy rough test is run over it with a magnet! If the inner firebox and tube plate are non magnetic it's obviously not steel and likely copper (doesn't rule out some grades of stainless though – stainless boilers are not testable or certifiable under the club scheme in the UK!). No real substitute for the mk1 eye ball though and a good careful visual exam.

Good luck and don't blow yourself up!

Paul.

Thanks again Paul, I’m quite overwhelmed (in a good way!) by the welcoming & kind offers of help and/or equipment both on here and via PM, what a great bunch!

[David GWParticipant @davidgw13951]

Posted by Brian H on 08/01/2020 08:45:32:

David, John Hainings book "Model Traction Engine Construction " explains the function of controls on a model and also includes a section on raising steam and driving so may be useful.

Regards, Brian

Thank you Brian, I’m on it.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

A boiler that fails under pressure, even a small one is dangerous. Apart from any flying debris, the heat energy liberated will do a great deal of injury. Remember the heat from steam escaping from a kettle; and then SOME!

.Many clubs will test a member's boiler for free.

P S M E have a a couple of boiler testing sessions early in the year so that machines are ready for the season.

Howard

[David GWParticipant @davidgw13951]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 09/01/2020 11:55:34:

A boiler that fails under pressure, even a small one is dangerous. Apart from any flying debris, the heat energy liberated will do a great deal of injury. Remember the heat from steam escaping from a kettle; and then SOME!

.Many clubs will test a member's boiler for free.

P S M E have a a couple of boiler testing sessions early in the year so that machines are ready for the season.

Howard

Thanks, prefer the exploding kettle analogy to the hand grenade one.

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