Hello from a musical instrument maker

[Matt Nolan 1Participant @mattnolan1]

[Matt Nolan 1Participant @mattnolan1]

I see that it is proper form to introduce yourself here, so here I am – hello!

Mostly I am a basher of metal. I cold forge cymbals and gongs from Bronze and other alloys. There is often extreme heat treatment involved, but very rarely any actual hot forging. Most of my clients these days are percussionists in symphony orchestras. I also make triangles, tubular bells and other metal percussion instruments.

My interest in this forum comes from now owning a Myford ML7 from 1950. Apparently I am only the second owner. I will use this to turn caps for tubular bells, make small pieces of tooling, etc. I have thus far got away with freehand guerilla "lathing" using the cymbal turning lathe that I built which, fortuitously, I chose to have a myford thread on the spindle so I can quickly swap the large wooden cymbal turning backplates around or fit a small chuck.

I also have a small old horizontal mill which is somewhat anonymous. There is no maker's name or plate anywhere on it. It doesn't get much use, but comes in very hand from time to time.

I look forwards to learning some useful tips here, and hopefully being able to contribute too from time to time.

Thanks,

Matt.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Hi Matt, welcome to the forum. Sounds like you have some interesting and new-to-us skills so will be interesting to hear more.

Pictures of the mill might help in identification as I see you have mastered putting them in the album.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Matt Nolan 1 on 15/09/2016 10:53:28:

Mostly I am a basher of metal. I cold forge cymbals and gongs from Bronze and other alloys. There is often extreme heat treatment involved, but very rarely any actual hot forging. Most of my clients these days are percussionists in symphony orchestras. I also make triangles, tubular bells and other metal percussion instruments.

.

Welcome, Matt

… What an interesting profession.

I look forward to learning more.

MichaelG.

.

Edit:  Just realised that Bazyle wrote much the same … It must be true.

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 17/09/2016 20:43:23

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Fascinating work Matt! It sounds like an unusual and fulfilling job to have. However did you get into that line of business, if you don't mind me asking?

Welcome to the forum.

Regards

Dave

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Hail Matt!

It's interesting to see the different ways people start on here, i just kinda threw myself in the deep end after i came across a problem i wasn't able to solve by myself.

Michael W

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Welcome aboard Matt

We need more avowed metal bashers here

Neil

[Matt Nolan 1Participant @mattnolan1]

Thanks for the welcome folks. I guess I am an avowed bender too, what with the triangles and all…

I will have to take the camera into the workshop and photograph the horizontal miller and the funny gear lever action on the ML7 too for my other thread. My phone is useless at photos, proper camera is much better. I should photograph my cymbal lathe for you too, give you a laugh!

I got into cymbalsmithing as a result of being a drummer and an, err, electronic engineer… 11 years ago. First as a hobby interest, then as a full time business for 5 years, now as a part time business while my daughter is a baby / toddler. It is sort of a secret art, or at least it was. The internet is useful for spreading information. A decade ago, there were only 2 or 3 independent cymbalsmiths and hardly anybody knew about them. Now there are around 10 and a number of us have been featured in the drumming magazines.

I did love the lathe in metalwork classes at secondary school, but didn't pursue that as I was pushed towards more academic subjects. It is nice to finally have a small one of my own. I'm looking forwards to finding the time to site it and set it up.

Cheers,

Matt.

[Matt Nolan 1Participant @mattnolan1]

I had some old pictures of the cymbal lathe already on the computer from when I first built it.

It looks nice and clean there! Not any more. I have since added a post under the tool rest to give a little more rigidity. It is not totally rigid though and nor is the way you lathe a cymbal. The carbide bit (a re-ground roughing tool) is held in a 4 foot or so long piece of square section tube and is levered against the tool rest with the far end under one's armpit, or in the left hand (I'm a leftie), a bit like a very steep snooker shot, the right hand stabilising the fulcrum. The cutting bit rides on the surface of the cymbal, taking a cut but following the contours, it is not rigidly fixed. The swarf comes off in ribbons to about eye height

The wooden backing plate which is fitted in the photo above is concave for supporting cymbals while you lathe the underside. The other one, on the floor in front, is flat and used when lathing the top side of the cymbals. Most cymbal profiles will fit in these backing plates, but I also have some wooden rings which slot in to change the shape if necessary.

I made this not being certain of cutting speeds and also aiming at multiple materials. The lathe has 6 speeds by means of all combinations of the 2 pulleys on the motor and the 3 on the intermediate spindle. Ranges from 60rpm to 300rpm. Mostly, with cymbal bronze, I am using 300rpm or occasionally the next one down. At some point I want to fit an inverter / speed control with a foot pedal then I can spend less time changing belts/pulleys and also be able to speed up at the centre of cymbals and slow down a bit for the outermost portions of cymbals above about 20 inch diameter.

Pillow block bearings on railway sleeper on an old heavy duty metal filing cabinet type thing which was my dad's, probably was my grandad's too. Myford face plates for attaching the backing plates. Emergency stop kick board across the bottom at the front, but it takes so long to stop because of the momentum, it is a bit of a joke.

The rest of the metal parts of the lathe besides the off-the-shelf pulleys and bearings are mostly bits of 1950s bed frame (the angle-iron) and a TV stand (remember when TVs were properly big and heavy?) I had a nice man with a regular lathe and other machinery make the two spindles for me with keyways and the thread on the main one. Stainless steel.

The bit of M10 threaded bar sticking out of the middle threads into the spindle. That's for holding the cymbal in place through the cymbal's 1/2" mounting hole. Occasionally I might re-work a vintage cymbal for someone. Some of those have smaller holes. I have a little conical nut made from part of an expansion bolt. You can remove the M10 bar to change the backplates or occasionally swap it for a longer one for very high profile cymbals.

The motor can swing in and out and also slide from side to side a bit, so the primary belt can be positioned wherever suits. There's a knack to getting the tension right! The M12 threaded bar is in compression, the M10 is in tension.

There you have it.

Cheers,

Matt.

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

G'day Matt – welcome aboard.

What a really fascinating set-up for a dedicated job.

Well done. Keep up the good work.

* Danny M *

PS. The diversity of careers and speciality offshoots in model enginering never ceases to amaze me!

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

 

Hell Matt and welcome. The term "instrument maker" now seems to get a little hazier. I hope nobody will object to me blowing your trumpet for you!

http://www.mattnolancustomcymbals.com/

Edited By Rik Shaw on 18/09/2016 09:36:01

[OldMetallerParticipant @oldmetaller]

Matt, thanks for posting, this is all really interesting! I used to be a bass player so I know how much importance drummers attach to having the 'right' cymbals… I've also got tinnitus from standing too close to the ride cymbal, trying to work out what the hell the drummer is doing THIS time!

Regards,

John.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Thanks for the pictures and mini-bio Matt.

It's odd how often I've seen cymbals, gongs and the rest without wondering who made them or how. I had a sudden flash back to me in a cinema watching that bloke with a giant gong in the J Arthur Rank intro.

10/10 for making a Cymbal lathe yourself. 10/10 for making things on it that people want to buy!

Cheers,

Dave

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

John, are you suggesting that drummers don't play the same arrangement every time?

I will be really interested to read anything regarding cymbal making as I came close to having a go my self recently but decided just to buy some (I am learning percussion or at least trying too, it's a lot harder than it looks… ).

Mark

[Matt Nolan 1Participant @mattnolan1]

The cymbal lathe this afternoon. Bell bronze swarf on the floor, but 3-jaw chuck in place. See the high tech tool rest support.

[Matt Nolan 1Participant @mattnolan1]

Posted by Mark C on 18/09/2016 22:47:53:

John, are you suggesting that drummers don't play the same arrangement every time?

I will be really interested to read anything regarding cymbal making as I came close to having a go my self recently but decided just to buy some (I am learning percussion or at least trying too, it's a lot harder than it looks… ).

Mark

It wasn't around when I started, but Craig Lauritsen's cymbal making 101 is useful. You can find it at his cymbalutopia website.

[Matt Nolan 1Participant @mattnolan1]

The mystery old horizontal milling machine is in this new thread – http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=120699 – if anyone might have any clues as to what make or model it is.

Cheers,

Matt.

Edited By Matt Nolan 1 on 19/09/2016 00:00:26

[OldMetallerParticipant @oldmetaller]

Posted by Mark C on 18/09/2016 22:47:53:

John, are you suggesting that drummers don't play the same arrangement every time?

Mark

Maybe it was just the drummers I played with…it sometimes felt like I was in that over-illuminated chair with Magnus grilling me: …'and your specialist subject is, Trying To Work Out What The Bl**dy Drummer Is Playing This Time'!

John.

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

Matt,

Oddly enough I had found Craig's site just a week or so ago.

Do you cast & roll your own blanks?

Mark

[Matt Nolan 1Participant @mattnolan1]

Posted by Mark C on 19/09/2016 22:46:57:

Matt,

Oddly enough I had found Craig's site just a week or so ago.

Do you cast & roll your own blanks?

Mark

No, I buy blanks from Germany, China and Turkey, depending on what I am trying to acheive.

The casting part wouldn't be that difficult relatively speaking. The rolling mill on the other hand – that's a very big, very heavy, very expensive piece of kit. Also, it would be massively inefficient to run a rig like that for a one-man-band.

I have started doing some small scale casting experiments to make things like finger cymbals. There is a need for specifically tuned pairs for various orchestral works. Very small, very thick cymbals with relatively large and pronounced cups. Not the kind of shape you can cold forge. Even hot forging would be difficult.

Cheers,

Matt.

[John Moore 16Participant @johnmoore16]

Hi there from an engineer (mechanical) and fellow percussionist. I'm not much of a kit drummer but I do own a lovely old Sonor kit and some nice cymbals (Bosphorus, Zildjian 'A', UFIP) so I really appreciate your skills and interest in an ancient black art.

Most of my playing has been in Latin hand percussion, especially Brazilian. As a Brazilian percussionist I also appreciate a good triangle (for north east rhythms like Forro, as well as more general jazz or pop-fusiony stuff). I have always wanted a good triangle but have never really wanted to spend the kind of money required for a quality instrument.

My question to you is: what material do you use for triangles, and is there any heat treatment involved, like annealing or tempering?

John in Oz

[Matt Nolan 1Participant @mattnolan1]

Hi John.

I use several different metals for triangles. Steel, Brass and a couple of different Bronzes.

Heat treatment is different for each and is generally done to increase the elongation parameter before bending while trying to preserve hardness.

With some Brass alloys, you can do no heating. But the triangle will have to rest and self stress relieve over about a week.

Steel can be softened or hot-spot and then re-hardened then tempered, but actually I find I get a better sound just by annealing, certainly with silver steel.

The Bronzes are more complicated. Very specific temperatures and times. I made some little thermostat controlled ovens which can go up to 700 degrees Celsius.

Forgot requires a wide shallow isosceles shape right? All the action is at a bottom corner and the wider top bend is easier to hold and mute/un-mute.

Cheers, Matt

[Matt Nolan 1Participant @mattnolan1]

Posted by Matt Nolan 1 on 20/09/2016 09:08:12:

Steel can be softened or hot-spot and then re-hardened then tempered, but actually I find I get a better sound just by annealing, certainly with silver steel.

Sorry – pesky phone auto-correct. That should read "hot-bend", not "hot-spot".

[Author]

Posts