HBM 250-550 Lathe Tooling

[David Millar 3Participant @davidmillar3]

Hi There,

I've recently acquired a new (to me) HBM 250-550 lathe.

It came with a miss-match of assorted tooling ranging from 6mm to 12mm.

The manual I've downloaded lists optional extras, including a set of 10mm tooling.

I've compared the 12mm tool to a centre mounted in the tail stock. The cutting edge is very slightly lower than the centre. A shim of drinks can aluminium under the tool looks like it would bring the cutting edge up to centre. This is only based on trying the single 12mm tool available.

My questions are, should I go for 10mm or 12mm tooling? Does anyone have a HBM 250-550, and if so, what do you use?

Kind Regards

David

[David Millar 3Participant @davidmillar3]

Does anyone have any advice please?

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

It depends if you are talking about HSS or insert tooling. I prefer to use small cross HSS section tooling if I can. Far less grinding required being my reason! As for insert tooling it is a matter of price, the larger the tool the more expensive, so again I go for small cross section tooling. The lathes I have are a maximum of 4" center height. What people use for bigger industrial type lathes may well be a different matter.

Andrew.

[David Millar 3Participant @davidmillar3]

Thanks Andrew

That makes sense.

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

The HBM 250-550 is badge engineered by Weiss. It is similar to many lathes offered by Warco, Chester, Amadeal etc. I have a WM250, same lathe different colour, I find that I tend mainly to use 12mm insert tooling which works well with my QCTP. I also use old 3/8" HSS tooling. Basically provided it fits in the toolpost and can be adjusted to centre height it will work. For a bit more info on the lathe have a look at my website – Journeyman's Workshop – there are quite a few pages on the WM250 including fitting QCTP and other mods and additions.

John

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

The HBM looks similar to the Warco WM250 and other generic Chinese Lathes:

Details vary – they're alike rather than standard – but all have similar capability. They're made by at least two major makers.

Worth browsing the Grizzly website to see if they sell the same machine because manuals for the US market are often more complete than the basic material supplied with British machines. The Grizzly G0602 looks similar, it's manual might be useful,

My lathe is the next size up, and it also can take 12mm tooling. It's the maximum size the lathe will put at centre-height rather than the recommended size, and best approached with caution because not all nominal 12mm tools will shim to centre-height. I mostly buy 10mm tools because they're guaranteed to fit! Shimming up is easier than shaving metal off a toughened 12mm tool!

Larger tooling has the advantage of being stiffer than smaller, usually a good thing, but I often find big cutters too clumsy for what I do. 10mm or 8mm is more appropriate and occasionally 6mm. The choice depends on how much space is available between job, chuck and cutter and the delicacy of the job in hand. 10mm is a reasonable size to learn on, and might be all that's needed. It depends on what the lathe is used for over time, which is why second-hand machines often come with a strange mix of tooling!

Must be possible to adjust the cutter to centre height, and then to reduce vibration, which is usually done by minimising overhang. Reach for a big cutter if a lot of metal must be removed quickly, but bear in mind hobby lathes aren't beefy enough to work at industrial rates and using smaller cutters is a good way of reducing stress and strain caused by over-enthusiastic operating.

Dave

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Anything that can fit or be made to fit is OK.

I have some tool-holders that have been milled down to fit – not for centre height, but to actually fit the tool-post. I don’t particularly bother myself about anything like that. Some have just needed a little surface grinding.

Small tools are still needed on occasions, so they all have a place in my cutter armoury.

Don’t limit yourself with things that are just ‘recommendations’ – they are often just a sales pitch by the supplier.

Quality is a much higher driver, for me.

[David Millar 3Participant @davidmillar3]

Thanks all.

I'll go with 10mm to start with. As mentioned above, they will fit with shims and will always be useful.

I may try 12mm in the future but I'll start with 10mm.

Thanks again.

David

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

As long as the cutting edge can be brought to centre height, it does not matter particularly what tooling is used, as long as it is harp and the clearance angles are somewhere near correct .

Obviously a 12mm tool will be stiffer than an 8 and so less prone to deflect and cause chatter..

Whatever is used, minimise overhang, to maximise rigidity.

Whether HSS or carbide can be a matter of choice. My preference would probably be HSS (I am Tangential Turning Tool addict ) but for hard materials, carbide can be better, if not essential.

You won't get much of a tool life, if any, trying to turn case, or through, hardened steel with HSS.

In that case use carbide and watch the red hot wire coming off!t

Howard

[David Millar 3Participant @davidmillar3]

Thanks Guys.

Great advice from all and it's got me moving forwards.

[Bernard StartParticipant @bernardstart12493]

Very interesting!

I have a AMABL250Fx550 Aka Wiess WBL250F.

I see from the HBM Lathe rebuild Pt 3 YouTube that they have a QCTP 250-111 as does Precision Mathews but there is a boss on my 250 that prevents this.

Any ideas please to circumvent this obstacle?

Bernard

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The likes of Warco tend to sell slightly different toolposts for specific machines which tend to have any alterations such as boring out the bottom to fit a boss carried out for you.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

I have a very similar WM250.

Much of my work is done with carbide insert tooling with 8mm shanks, but I've a couple with 6mm. There's no appreciable difference in performance. Bigger shanks would only get in the way, even if they could be mounted low enough to cut properly. The cost difference is against them too.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

A frequently overlooked point when using smaller tooling in larger toolpost is centring the tool under the clamp screws.

I have a batch of sharp inner corner angle L sections made up by welding two strips together to do basic alignment of smaller tools. The back, upright face being of a thickness that pretty much puts the clamp bolts on the toolbit or shank centre line and the underneath face thick enough to put an unground HSS toolbit or insert in its holder at the lathe centre height.

Makes life much easier as the tool with its intervening angle section can be pushed hard up against the back of the toolpost slot so the position is repeatable and the tool unlikely to move.

If going down to significantly smaller tooling, 6 mm in a slot made for 12 mm it may be better to machine the L spacer as the side needs to be shallow so it doesn't foul the bolts. Both side and base have to be quite thick too.

Frankly on a lathe of that size an HSS tooling made from 6 mm tool steel with be entirely adequate. Armstrong / J&S et al holders for Boxfords and the like used this size.

Clive

Edited By Clive Foster on 21/07/2023 19:13:08

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

It's all a matter of what suits the way you do what you do. I have a Warco WM250V and I still use the original 4-way toolpost with 1/4" square HSS tools ground to whatever profile suits the job – a plain knife tool with a few degrees side rake and about 20 degrees plan trail clearance does 80%+ of normal turning.

I use 1/4" because they're cheap, easy to grind as required and are quite rigid enough to cut most materials with a good enough depth of cut. I have a wide variety of shapes now:-

… and most of those have another form on t'other end.

I use a 2" length of 1/2" square section BDMS with a 1/4" square step milled out of it as a packing piece.

[Bernard StartParticipant @bernardstart12493]

Sorry David I'm not sure if I have joined the correct topic.

My comment is directed at your HBM 250-550 lathe.

I see in other videos the 250-111 QCTP fitted to this lathe.

Can you tell me how this is done with the existing post on the HBM top slide?

Regards Bernard

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 13/07/2022 10:33:04:

Worth browsing the Grizzly website to see if they sell the same machine because manuals for the US market are often more complete than the basic material supplied with British machines. The Grizzly G0602 looks similar, it's manual might be useful,

Dave

I wish the manuals for my Warco WM250 Lathe and WM16B Mill were as useful. Mine had numerous omissions and "out of date" information. Probably the most concerning was having to remove Mill tooling by clouting the drawbar when this was incorrect.

[Bernard StartParticipant @bernardstart12493]

Hi All for those of you interested in mounting a QCTP type 250-111 there is an excellent youTube

posted by WBR Works "Lathe Rebuild Pt2" from 3:36 to6:18

Regards to all Bernard Start

[HuubParticipant @huub]

I have a HBM BF290 lathe that looks the same. I have made a QCTP that has a centre height of 12.54 mm and it can hold 21 mm tools.
I make most of my tools my self but have bought some (insert) tools that have a 16 mm centre height. I use the mill to make the centre height of the tools fit the tool post. I glue shims on tools that are to low.

This lathe is a bench top lathe and it is not that rigid. A 8 mm tool, with little stick out, is rigid enough to take a 0.5 mm depth cut in steel.
Any tool will do as long as it fits the tool post and you can get it on centre height.

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