Has anybody built the steam engine kit : (40701) Liegende 12/36 ?

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

1. Yes, painting methods on full size engines are quite a bit different.

2. I was thinking of cutting circles for the ends but that has proven unsuccessful in the past. I could mask off the end covers and oval flanges with liquid masking then actually use these to mask off the areas on the cylinder that I do not want painted.

3. JB WELD will withstand 260 degrees Celsius ; I am not sure about other epoxy glues.

4. I also prefer using boiler bands but as you can see from the diagram it is not an option on this engine. The timber only goes half way around the cylinder. There is no way to attach the boiler bands.

Edited By Brian John on 14/05/2015 02:55:16

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

If you aren't using superheated steam, ordinary epoxy should be fine.

Neil

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

1. New problem : I was going to make some adaptors for the steam inlet and outlets (part 77) so I could use my usual 3/16'' fittings. I thought this engine kit would use 2,3,4 and 5mm metric coarse and I purchased taps and dies to suit. But all threads appear to be metric fine. Is this unusual in model engineering ?

2. What diameter brass rod is required if I intend to cut a 5mm thread on it ? Is it 5mm plus 1/32 = 5.79. ( The rule of thumb for tap drills is X minus 1/32)

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Most of the European models and fittings use fine metric threads so quite usual.

5mm rod for a M5 metric thread 4.2mm tapping hole for M5x0.8 metric coarse, 4.5mm tapping drill for M5x0.5 metric fine

Rule of thumb for metric threads major diameter less pitch gives tapping size. Number of thread eg M5 means 5.0mm major diameter

Edited By JasonB on 20/05/2015 11:02:24

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

So I have bought the wrong taps and dies ! I assumed that they would all be metric coarse.

1. These are listed on the plans : M6 X 0.75, M5 X 0.5 and M4 X 0.35. The first two seem to be standard metric fine but after looking at various websites (Chronos Tracey Tap and Die Co. Arc Euro etc. ) they only seem to have M4 X 0.5 listed under metric fine. Nobody seems to have M4 X 0.35…is this a very odd size ?

2. Their smaller screws are listed only as M2 or M3 and the length ie. no pitch is given. Is it safe to assume that these would also be metric fine ? Is it normal to mix metric coarse and fine on the one engine ?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Screws, Nuts & bolts more likely to be metric coarse just like an english engine would use BA or coarse metric, the fine threads tend to be used where an english engine would use the ME 40tpi and 32tpi threads

That is a very fine M4 thread, have to have a look for those

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

Painting : I have decided to mask the cylinder covers and oval flanges and then use these to mask off certain areas of the cylinders.

I have a few other questions.

1. Do you paint the bottom of the metal base ? I always paint the bottom of the base but I was wondering if other people do this too.

2. The flywheel is cast iron and I am worried about rust on the unpainted rim. All my other flywheels have been brass and I painted the spokes and left the rims as bare metal which is the usual method. Any thoughts on painting the whole of this cast iron flywheel to prevent rust ? I am not sure I have seen this done before.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> 1. Do you paint the bottom of the metal base ? I always paint the bottom of the base but I was wondering if other people do this too.

Perhaps that should be the subject of a web poll! A secret that every engine hides

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I rarely paint the underside, there my secret is out.

Nothing to stop you painting the whole flywheel, commonly done in full size where the flywheel rim was not being used to run a flat drive belt on. A lot of people like a bright blingy flywheel rim on their models so that is why you see a lot of polished up ones.

Couple of mine with painted rims

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

Okay, so I will be painting all the flywheel. That also saves having to mask off the rim

Jason : what is that second engine ? What are the ''bricks'' made of ? Why does the flywheel have those partitions in the outer rim ?

NOTE : I have managed to clean up the cheap wooden base supplied with this kit. I used a power sander to remove all the burn marks and blemishes in the timber. It may actually turn out all right !

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Brian, its a 1/6th scale Easton And Anderson beam engine, all made from solid or fabricated. There is a 1/12th scale one available as a casting kit that was designed by Anthony Mount and is available from Bruce Engineering. I based mine on that but added more detail partly as the size made it possible and partly as I had more photos of the original than Anthony did at the time.

The notches around the flywheel are "barring holes" as its a single cylinder engine it won't start if the piston is in the wrong position and unlike our models you can't give the real thing a flick with your hand so on the smaller engines a bar was used to lever the flywheel round one notch at a time until it was in the right place. Larger engines would actually have had a small steam engine with a geared drive to do the same same job and there were called "barring engines"

I described how I did the base here and if you go onto page 15 of the build thread you can see a pic of the masked parts being painted.

Edit, just a thought that if you wanted a bright flywheel rim you could go to the local car accesory shop and by a can of clear gloss, that would protect the metal from rust.

Edited By JasonB on 31/05/2015 13:27:40

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by JasonB on 31/05/2015 13:26:35:

Larger engines would actually have had a small steam engine with a geared drive to do the same same job and there were called "barring engines"

.

Off topic slightly I know.

But where did the expression a 'donkey engine' come from as I think they did a similar thing.

Nick

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

Would painting the rim with clear gloss really stop it from rusting ? Would the clear gloss even adhere to the metal ?

I could also paint the rim a different colour (red). I think it might look a bit odd to me if I were to leave it all the same colour.

Edited By Brian John on 01/06/2015 07:32:28

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes and Yes

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Hair spray works too.

Ian S C

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

I have cleaned up the cast iron wheel with a file. Next I will give it the wire brush treatment with the rotary tool prior to etch priming it. The top coat I use is Killrust metal paint and it states that an etch primer is not required but I always use it anyway on all metals : brass, aluminium, copper and cast iron. Even if it does not help then it does not hurt !

1. How long after etch priming should the top coat be applied ? The tin of etch primer says within 48 hours to prevent contamination. I usually keep it in a shoe box while waiting for some fine weather to use the airbrush. Where I live, this can mean waiting for weeks !

NOTE : I am going to paint the whole wheel Brunswick Green to see how it looks. I might then paint the outer rim red if I do not like the total green look.

2. Preparing brass and aluminium for etch priming : I usually scratch the surface a bit with a scotch pad then wash down with methylated spirits as this is the solvent for my etch primer. What is your preferred method ?

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

UPDATE : I have cleaned up the flywheel and the rim will have to be painted. It is has not been machined very well ie. the surface is not bright and shiny. Without a lathe there is nothing more I can do with it.

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

I decided to fit the cylinder covers and oval flanges to the cylinders and then mask these parts off : this then masks off the areas I do not want to airbrush. After many weeks of waiting for the rain to finish I finally got a fine day to try it. I think it has worked quite well. In the photos you can see the main cylinder that has had the masking and the cylinder covers removed. The control cylinder still has the masking tape over the cylinder covers and oval flanges. The colour is Killrust deep Brunswick green. It looks much better than in the photos ! Photo #3 is close to the real colour.

The timber lagging will be glued directly onto the painted area of the main cylinder. I was going to mask this off but I decided not to. I am still undecided which glue to use for this : maybe JB WELD ?

 

 

Edited By Brian John on 20/06/2015 08:04:17

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

I have finished all the airbrush painting and now I am just waiting for everything to harden properly before assembly. I am also undecided on which timber lagging to use. I have stained one set of basswood strips with three coats of mahogany stain and two coats of satin clear (mahogany stain never looks like mahogany !). I have left the other set of basswood strips unstained and given them three coats of clear satin. I think I will go with the stained timber as it looks better. I could not get real mahogany strips thin enough.

I was not happy with an all green flywheel so I airbrushed the spokes and inside rims with Killrust red after masking off the outside areas of the flywheel.

NOTE : I did airbrush the undersides of the base, control cylinder and the crosshead guide. The sides of the control cylinder and main cylinder which join together have not been painted.

The main cylinder has been painted ; the timber lagging will be glued to this.

1. Should I roughen the gloss paint on the main cylinder with sandpaper before applying glue ?

2. The other sides of the timber strips have not been painted yet. Will I get better glue adhesion to raw timber of timber coated with satin clear ?

Edited By Brian John on 29/06/2015 08:40:04

Edited By Brian John on 29/06/2015 08:41:55

Edited By Brian John on 29/06/2015 08:43:12

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

What glue have you decided to use?

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

I am still tossing up between JB Weld and 5 minute Araldite. The Araldite dries clear so I think I will go with that but I am not sure if it can take high tempertaures. What do other people use ?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The slower setting Araldite is generally stronger than the 5min stuff but JB Weld will be the safer bet due to its heat resistance. I tend to use brass banding to hold the iimber in place rather than glue.

You will get a better bond to bare wood, won't make a lot of difference if you scratch up the paint or not.

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

I would like to use brass banding too. That is what I have used on the vertical boilers I have built but I am not sure how to attach brass bands to this cylinder. It is only round for 3/4 of the surface then it is flat where it joins to the control cylinder.

I suppose it might be possible to drill and tap four small holes in the control cylinder to take the bands : two on the top and two on the bottom of the control cylinder.

NOTE : I have just spoken to Selleys technical division. They said that Araldite is not good with high temperature as it tends to go soft.

Edited By Brian John on 30/06/2015 02:07:22

Edited By Brian John on 30/06/2015 02:24:21

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

After much sanding, glue, painting and spraying : the wooden box is finally finished. I bought some bass wood strips from Micromark in the US to use as beading which covers up the construction slots and the end grain of the side panels. I also sanded out the chequered pattern on the top because there was a very large knot in the wood which was actually a shallow hole. I had to take off about 0.5mm before I got down to a flat surface ! It has been given five coats of gloss (brush) and two coats of satin (spray) polyurethane. There was a lot of work getting this box to look presentable. I do not think it was worth the 60 Euros. I only it bought because I thought it was a pre-shaped solid piece of timber. It should look quite nice with the engine on it though.

Edited By Brian John on 15/07/2015 14:02:02

Edited By Brian John on 15/07/2015 14:04:33

[Brian JohnParticipant @brianjohn93961]

I have partially assembled the engine and it is starting to look good. There were a few problems with one of the holes for the screws on the cross head guide not being threaded properly. I had to grind about 1.5mm off the end of the screw to get it to fit. I am not sure what thread they are using so I could not order the correct die die to retap the hole. All I know is that the screw is brass M2 X 16 SW4 where SW4 means a 4mm hex head.

I ended up using the bass wood strips stained with golden oak as lagging. They were glued on with JB Weld.

1. Where can I buy such screws ?

2. Why was Brunswick Green chosen to paint so many engines during the early days of steam ? Was it just because it looks good against brass or was it an easy colour to manufacture ?

3. This is the first engine I have assembled where the exhausts ports are on top. Won't the engine ''choke'' from the condensing steam ? There is no where for it to go.

Edited By Brian John on 20/07/2015 07:28:35

Edited By Brian John on 20/07/2015 07:30:28

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