Hand Hacksaw

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

SOD's comments are likely correct, but you have to balance Baroque testing techniques against the time and resource taken to carry 'em out!

Added to which, as others like Hopper have pointed out, people develop skills of their own in using the tool variants they're familiar with, in which circumstances confirmation bias becomes a valid component of judgement.

For myself, I've had an Eclipse No.60B frame for about 45 years, I've never been aware of the blade twist others describe, and can find no negatives about it that wouldn't apply to pretty much any other type. I use Eclipse 12" x 24 TPI HSS bimetallic blades when I can get them, and the only blades I think were rubbish were unbranded cheapies whose source I can no longer remember – perhaps my confirmation bias edited them out…

Edited By Mick B1 on 27/02/2022 13:27:04

[egaParticipant @ega]

Posted by JimmieS on 27/02/2022 11:45:00:

Could we extend this thread to 'junior hacksaw' selection?

Jim

Eclipse do one with a tensioning screw.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 27/02/2022 12:15:27:

Posted by DiogenesII on 27/02/2022 10:24:38:

…

Since I wrote the last post, it occurs to me that blades were probably slightly better, in the better days of yore at least – having considered why I like to put tension on modern blades, it's probably because some of them are, well, less than perfect.

I have some 'own brand' all-hards from a major supplier, they're okay, but the cut is chattery and rippled unless stretched out to the max. I wonder whether the material is as hard, stiff, or more stretchy than old stock, and whether the teeth are as accurately ground or set..

Maybe I'll try an old stock Eclipse or Starrett blade in an 'old school' frame and compare..

Old chaps like to believe that old tools and materials were somehow 'better' in the past, but there's precious little evidence to support the idea! Rather the opposite: if modern tools and materials were no good, industry wouldn't be making smart phones by the billion, landing probes on Mars, erecting buildings 1km high, replacing coal with green energy, building nano-machines, or perfecting autonomous motor vehicles! Yesteryear industry did not have the techniques or understanding needed to produce many of today's high-tech products, and R&D had to work hard to get to where we are now.

Dave

Just one 'observation' as to why old tools and materials were somehow 'better' in the past could well be the proliferation of hobby grade supplies. Pretty much anything you wanted in the past was made for industrial use. I don't think I even remember seeing anything other than an Eclipse blade until recent years for instance.

Whilst I agree that the only quantitive way of comparing items such as saw blades would be by machine, the entire process is completely irrelevent if you compare an professional quality blade of yesteryear with a hobby grade item of today.

regards Martin

[MikeKParticipant @mikek40713]

This thread prompts a question: Should I de-tension hacksaw frames for storage?

Mike

[DiogenesIIParticipant @diogenesii]

More stuff to catch up on;

Mike – yes – or perhaps maybe – things seem less clear-cut today!. Also you shouldn't leave work clamped tight in a milling vice for long periods (just in case you are ever tempted to do so)

Dave, there is no doubt in my mind that certain products made in the past were of better quality than their equivalents are today – specialised grades of material were more widely available in the local economy, and labour was cheaper, meaning that some processes that were formerly economic are no longer so, and the use of some grades of material has declined because it is no longer cost-effective to employ it. Producers better understand their target market and subtle changes in consumer expectation mean that cost has become the primary driver in the retail market for domestic hand tools, whereas up until ? the 1970's ?, 'reputation, quality & durability' (or at least an illusion of those things) was – in the UK at that time many end-user's had had direct experience in one of the worlds centres of manufacturing.

An example – the garden spade / edging iron / pointing trowel – pre 1960's tooling has thin blades of forged carbon steel, the better quality one's are thinner, harder, and the socket or tang is contiguous with the main structure, though often in a different state of temper. The blades are thinner & harder and have the right degree of flexibility to avoid breakage and makes for a nicer working action.

As far as modern versions go, most are made of welded stainless steel – 1980's / 90's 'better' quality stuff from the likes of S&J, and WSword are thinner than post-millenial ones, tho' still essentially 'throw-away' – they fail with remarkable predictability at the joint of head and socket, the weld often failing.

Instead of improving the method of manufacture to obviate the problem, simply increasing the quantity of cheap material in the blade has been seen as the 'cure' – what's 'advanced' about that?

(Rude comment about Bulldog tools deleted).

I have more 60-70-year old spades than 1990's ones, although I have bought far more of the latter.

I'm 56.

Jimmie – by all means – I've gone back to a quality 'wire frame'..

[Henry BrownParticipant @henrybrown95529]

I use an unbranded frame, must be 10 years old at least, its pretty rigid and seems ok. What I have found is that the Eclipse Plus 30 blades I bought at the last Warwick ME Show, before Covid, have a huge amount of paint in them! So much that it actually caused the blade to jam until it wore off…

I don't use the hacksaw much as the Scheppach (Aldi I think) band saw does most of that type of cutting these days…

Edited By Henry Brown on 28/02/2022 15:24:28

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

There is no doubt in my mind that many old tools are better than their modern counterparts. I have a liking and the know how, to keep wood working planes in good order. There is a marked difference between good modern planes and the older variety and that isn't in favour of the modern stuff!

It isn't user bias, even the uninitiated can tell the difference when using them.

Andrew.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I have three hacksaw frames and my favourite is an Eclipse but so is my least favourite, my favourite is an old pistol grip frame with a rigid flat bar frame, my least favourite is the tubular framed Eclipse from 1973 when I purchased it.I also have a Ding Dong frame which is not bad but fairly heavy, I understand that Ding Dong blades were rubbish but the frame is not bad. I prefer all hard blades if I am sawing work that is rigidly held but if I am sawing conduit in a site pipe vice then it has to be a flexible bimetal blade. I mainly use Eclipse and Sandvik(Bahco) blades but Starrett seem to be very well regarded but rare in the UK.

Mike

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Best blades I've found recently were Starrett.

Robert G8RPI.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Hopper,

Re your observation that the Eclipse tubular hacksaw of old, holds the blade at about 5 degrees from the vertical. Mine is exactly as you describe it. I was also given a brand new Eclipse hacksaw (same type) and this also holds the blade at approx 5 degrees re the frame.

From this I infer that the 5 degree offset is deliberate, for the reasons that you give.

Andrew.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

I have a favourite old Eclipse chromed tubular frame oval shape and a hollow cast? alloy handle, very comfortable to hold. Unfortunately spoilt by hollow handle being so thin it cannot resist blade tension. Dare not try to straighten it, could break. Temporary cure to get some tension, added a number of washers under the tensioning nut and always slacken screw after use on all my frames. I use two frames to hold brand new blades of different tpi for non – ferrous and two more frames to hold blades for steel and cast iron, having previously been used for brass, copper, ali. Saves constant blade changing. Different styles of frames to see which I thought were best and now used as above. Junior hacksaws, no longer use the older thick wire type, now only use the ones with a screw tensioner. Got several so as to use new blades for non – ferrous then later for steel, iron.

[DiogenesIIParticipant @diogenesii]

Starrett HSS £1.09 each if you buy 10..

Zoro – Starrett high speed steel hacksaw blades

[DiogenesIIParticipant @diogenesii]

In response to comments in this thread, last night I put my Facom frame in the vise and spent a few minutes realigning it – I expected it to have some 'spring' and be difficult, but as it happened, it went back into shape easily and seems to have stayed there.

I fitted a new blade, nipped (rather than heaved) up the tension and all seems good, at least as good as ever was..

Having sliced a few thin slabs off the end of an EN3 bar and some bits of gauge plate by way of experimentation, I feel less inclined to screw the tension up as much as had previously been my habit..

PS – I can't mantion 'habit' without admitting that I overlooked the fact that fallability of judgement was one of the points that SOD was trying to make – I concede that one – apologies, Dave..

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Posted by MikeK on 27/02/2022 15:43:01:

This thread prompts a question: Should I de-tension hacksaw frames for storage?

Mike

Hi Mike,

I don't know the answer to your question, better leave that to the specialists, but I de-tension my hacksaws when they are not in use.

Thor

[John RutzenParticipant @johnrutzen76569]

Hi, I bought my DingDong over 50 years ago in Bradford. Still going strong.

[Oven ManParticipant @ovenman]

+1 for the tubular Eclipse frame bought in the early seventies. Mine is well battered but still performs OK.

Given the number of Eclipse blades on offer on eBay can we be sure they are all genuine? I bought a batch of "Eclipse?" blades some years ago and I have convinced myself that they could be second hand even though the paint and labelling is perfect. They cut much better at each end compared with the middle part. Is someone in China using them and then repainting them before selling them on?

Peter

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

My Eclipse 20T with oval frame was bought during my apprenticeship,and was in work use until1967,for a lot of model and motor cycle work I found the Abrafile blades were very good for cutting small parts and radii ,in ten years use the diecast handle had started to distort due to tightening the blade,I then bought a new Eclipse the handle still a diecasting ,and improved ,the steel pin to hold the blade was now inline with the bottom of the handle,that handle has never distorted,it still saws straight and the blade has about a half inch deeper throat,my policy is never let anyone else use it, misuse,overtightening etc can cause distortion,The first saw is still relegated permanetly for my diminishing stock of Abrafile blades . I keep a really old eclipse hung on my shed door anyone in the yard can use it. I somehow aquired an Eclipse round tube frame,were these an early version,?I use it ocasionally for sawing tiles. I remember the Ding Dong blades,a plant fitter I knew fifty years ago had a box of them in his Austin pick up,supplied by his boss, his comment on them was "B" useless ,"its a case of Ding Dong and they break.My training was to release blade tension after use,and I still do, The possible cause of the early handles distorting badly.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Right now Zoro have the 12" Starrett high speed blades at 0.95. each in 18, 24 and 32 tpi Using the discount code FHQA05, you get an extra 5% off.

Postage is free above £20, I added a 500 gm tub of Rocal RTD for a few pence over £15. Most other sellers charge £19 to £25 for this.

If you want hacksaw blades or Rocol RTD, then buy now, as the special offer won't last too long!

Andrew

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I had three of those Eclipse tubular hacksaws from the seventies, but I gave one to one of my sisters. However this Draper Expert one I've had for about twenty odd years is my favourite, it's a quick release one and is very ridged and has provision to hold the blade at 45 degrees, but one of the pins that hook onto the blade is missing.

Regards Nick.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Sorry, the Rocal was £16.99, then the 5% discount, but still cheap!

Andrew.

Edited By Andrew Tinsley on 01/03/2022 10:44:41

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Thor 🇳🇴 on 01/03/2022 05:22:26:

Posted by MikeK on 27/02/2022 15:43:01:

This thread prompts a question: Should I de-tension hacksaw frames for storage?

Mike

Hi Mike,

I don't know the answer to your question, better leave that to the specialists, but I de-tension my hacksaws when they are not in use.

Thor

Can't find the reference and my memory is untrustworthy! However, I'm sure one of my books says springs go bad as a result of being worked too and fro, so leaving them loaded does less harm than relaxing and re-tensioning.

Having said that, it's also true that materials creep over time and microcracks cause premature failure by creating stress raisers. Highly polished test pieces are stronger than otherwise identical pieces left rough, which is bad news for tools that are used and dinged. Likewise tool marks, faulty heat treatment and poor manufacture, slag inclusions, over-loading, corrosion and similar minor problems reduce the life of mechanically stressed items.

Putting it another way, well-cared for lightly loaded tools last much longer than brutalised and neglected ones!

The Lee-Enfield rifles kept as Patterns in 1895 and later transferred to museums are in near perfect condition. Unlike the millions that went to war! Beware 'Survivor Bias'. I mention the Lee-Enfield because it's a strong contender to be the best military bolt action rifle of all time. Not because individuals like them and it ticks all my patriotic boxes, but because millions of them performed consistently well in deserts, jungles, deep mud, and arctic conditions. Reliable and effective with low numbers of accidents and breakdowns.

The Lee-Enfield is a tool, not a toy. Although the opinion of individual enthusiasts is part of the story, only analysing the experience of thousands of users using them realistically reveals the truth. Statistics beat hearsay and anecdotes every time!

I bang on against 'old being better' because it's a damaging myth. Engineering is about problem solving and making money in today's fiercely competitive market: it's brutal, requiring constant adjustments. Small-c conservativism is unhelpful when innovation is needed. Yesterday's methods are unlikely to be appropriate today, no matter how successful they were in the past. Like it or not times have changed: it's our job to sort out new problems, not to delay progress by promoting past glories.

Dave

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

I still use an old hacksaw, the one with the handle in line with the blade like a file.

Roy

[Henry BrownParticipant @henrybrown95529]

As an apprentice I was taught to loosen the tension on the blade and then just nip the tensioner up to stop the blade from falling out. I do it as a matter of habit now…

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Henry Brown on 01/03/2022 11:50:48:

As an apprentice I was taught to loosen the tension on the blade and then just nip the tensioner up to stop the blade from falling out. I do it as a matter of habit now…

I was taught the same thing and my Eclipse issued as a first year apprentice in 1974 still holds as good a tension as when new. I've seen many similar hacksaws at garage sales and secondhand stalls etc that have totally lost the ability to hold tension so can only assume they were left under tension in storage for years.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I have used Lee Enfields and standard German army (WW2) Mausers. I found that the Mausers were a better proposition than the Lee Enfield. The best British rifle that I have used was the P14 from WW1. The action is superior to both the Lee Enfield and the Mauser.

I am led to understand that the Lee Enfield (modified to 7.62 caliber) is still used as the British army sniper rifle or at least was until very recently?. I really can't understand this, as there are much better sniper rifles available these days.

Andrew.

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