Getting started to build live steam

[joshingjoshParticipant @joshingjosh]

Hello, I am new to live steam building. I was planning to build St Christopher by Don Young in 3 1/2 gauge. What would be the recommended size for a lathe and milling machine to create a 4-6-0 Great Western locomotive? Also, would a cutter be needed for a mill?

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Whilst there is no harm in setting ones sights high, coming to this with it seems little experience and no tools will be a real challenge ! I would suggest that you start with something more modest and get used to using a lathe and mill. A simple oscillating engine first, this will give you some work in precision followed by may be a Stuart Models 10 V or H with this done you will have a better idea of what to do and how to do it. You will also now realise the cost involved for castings, your boiler will be £2000 for a ready made unit.

A small lathe and mill will spoil £2000 by the time you have tooling Etc

Good Luck. Noel

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Starting a loco as a first project is ambitious to say the least. A project like this can take from many months or more likely several years to complete. If as seems likely from your initial post that you are just starting into the model engineering hobby then you will need quite a selection of tooling above and beyond just a lathe and mill to finish the project. Not to mention fairly deep pockets for materials.

If you are are about to set up a new workshop have a look at Journeyman’s Workshop this is a link to five pages on setting up and equipping a workshop with some basic info about lathe, mill and hand tools.

Good luck with your project.

John

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Welcome, and top marks for aiming high.   That’s ambitious!  I strongly recommend starting with a simpler project or three, as a way of developing the necessary skills first.

I found Stewart Hart’s Potty Mill an excellent starter project. (Site up but not responding at the moment – try later)  It’s a relatively simple stationary engine built from stock – no castings needed.   You will learn how to read technical drawings and how to approach cutting parts from metal.  Drilling, sawing, filing, milling, threading , reaming, boring, lapping and turning.  Measurements.  Workflows – the order in which parts are made, because the sequence of machine operations applied can simplify or complicate a build.   Lots of practical skills to develop, so don’t be surprised to fill a scrap box with failures at first!

As to size of lathe, it’s good advice to buy the biggest you can.   It’s because small lathes can only do small work, whilst big lathes, can usually manage to do tiny.   (The exception is small lathes are better when only small work is being done – clockmakers shouldn’t buy monster equipment, unless of course they also mend motor bikes!)

A quick look at St Christopher on the Reeves website suggests the biggest item to be turned are the 5¼” driving wheels.  The lathe has to be big enough to do that, and the attribute is called ‘swing’.   5¼” is 134mm, so look for a machine generously beyond that. The Warco range put maximum swing their model names!  WM180, swing 180mm, WM240, swing 240mm etc.  Most mini lathes claim about 180mm, but that’s optimistic.  Problem is achievable swing is often rather less than the theoretical maximum.  Whilst a lathe might be able to spin a large diameter job bolted to a faceplate, not held in a chuck, it gets increasingly difficult to get the cutter into position because the saddle, cross-slide, top-slide, and tool post tend to get in the way.   A bigger lathe, having a bigger chuck, often simplifies work-holding because the chuck will grip the job without fuss, so no need to set the part up on a faceplate.

Same ‘go big if you can’ applies to milling machines too.   Having plenty of room on the table greatly simplifies work-holding – quite difficult to secure a large object on a small mill.

Yes you will need a cutter for the mill, actually several and much else.   To find out what, buy a book, and ask here.  Our very own Jason  Ballamy’s “Milling for Beginners” is a good intro.  For lathes, it’s hard to beat L H Sparey’s “The Amateur’s Lathe”, except it doesn’t cover carbide inserts or digital gizmos; written in 1948!  For modern gizmos try Neil Wyatt’s “The Mini-Lathe“.

I don’t build locomotives, so let’s hope an expert will comment.   My biggest problem if I decided to build one is the boiler, a big subject in it’s own right.

Dave

[DalboyParticipant @dalboy]

I brought my first lathe and milling machine with the view to turn some ambitious projects, but knowing that I would need some practice first.

Even so, I brought mine to suit future projects so that I did not have to sell and buy bigger later on once I had enough experience to build the projects I wanted to make.

 

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Welcome to the forum. Now find your nearest Model Engineering club (even if that is a 50 mile round trip) as they may have some equipment available and lots of advice and support. Don’t buy anything for six months. Spend the time reading this forum, some books, and the ME magazine back issues. After that if you cannot answer the questions yourself then you need to do more reading.
Best advice at the moment: Plan your workshop. Throw the plans away and start again with a shed twice the size.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Yes, Welcome to the Forum

But take note of what has been said. DON’T be overambitious!

There is a VAST fund of knowledge, experience and skill on here.

You have made a good first move by asking.

Taking on a locomotive, or any complicated project, without skill or experience, let alone equipment, is a recipe for at least one expensive disaster.

You might find yourself with expensive mistakes, no idea of how you made them, or how to correct, or prevent repeats.

Once you have decided what size of lathe you want / can afford (And the measuring equipment and ancillary tooling) and the space needed. Start by learning how to set it up and use it.

When you ask a question, make sure that you call things by the right name, otherwise you will get answers to a question that you didn’t ask, and possibly can’t understand.

A Turner used to serve a four year apprenticeship, so a month or two is not going to produce immediate skill in a beginner.

The first two things that I learned were that setting a cut on a lathe takes material off both sides, making it easy to remove twice as much as wanted, and then how to turn a handwheel slowly and steadily.

Join a model engineering club, and buy some books. (I can suggest titles, as no doubt can others)

You would have problems moving a 5″ centre height (10″ swing) lathe into a third floor flat (And the neighbours may object to any noise that you make!

Then start by just learning how to set up the lathe, grind tools, and just cut bits of mild steel to gain a little experience. You need to learn how to drill and tap holes. Going about it in the wrong way will be a very expensive method. Taps don’t bend, they break, and that ruins the workpiece.

Sorry to appear to be negative, but we all had to learn to stand before walking, let alone running.

One further bit of advice. Research your supplier before buying, some provide better after sales support than others. Some will offer a complete package, others a bare machine and then a range of accessories.

If buying second, or more, hand, take someone with you to examine the machine. Don’t be taken in by shiny paint, it may not show wear or other problems.

Tell us where you are located, there may be someone closeby whi is prepared to help and advise.

Howard

Howard

[norm nortonParticipant @normnorton75434]

Hi Josh

Lots of encouragement and friendly help here on the Forum.

Please help me understand where you are knowledge-wise when you say will the milling machine need a cutter?

Norm

[joshingjosh]

On 28 November 2024 at 01:00 joshingjosh Said:

Hello, I am new to live steam building. I was planning to build St Christopher by Don Young in 3 1/2 gauge. What would be the recommended size for a lathe and milling machine to create a 4-6-0 Great Western locomotive? Also, would a cutter be needed for a mill?

By a ‘cutter’ if you are really referring to something to hold a cutter, then yes. Almost all the smaller mills are supplied only with a drill chuck, which is unsuitable for holding milling cutters.

The two ME books by Jason and Neil will probably cover most of your questions for new machines.

Please ‘do’ due diligence when choosing your machine and ensure that the largest part that you wish to make is comfortably inside the specs and not right on the outer limit.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Josh,

Have been trying to send you a PM, but failed.

If you PM me, with an E mail address, I can send the message, which i hope  will be of help

Howard

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I have a feeling he wants to cut the top of a spam tin.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Jason,

Is my message too long to send, perhaps? What is the upper limit on character count?

Howard

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

‘Joshing’ is not a word I had heard of until a new young employee at a place I was working at used it when asked to make a brew. I may be wrong, but maybe JokingJoke has come out of Jason’s spam tin.

I dont want to rant about the ‘new’ forum software but knowing the members location (even if only the country) by the applicant having to fill in some forms when joining the forum might deter the non serious.

I apologise to joshingjosh if my analysis is wrong.

Ian P

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Howard, I think you get a message it it is tool long.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

May be the fellow should start with a wind mill, then call it a wind turbine and fit a 775 dynamo ? Noel.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The lack of response does suggest joshing rather than a serious enquiry, when folk are trying to be helpful.

Howard

[joshingjoshParticipant @joshingjosh]

It’s an uncommon American term for joking, and my name is Joshua. I am from California, USA. My friends call me Joshing Josh as a nickname because I joke a lot. I appreciate everyone’s help in getting me started on Live Steam. I have been busy with Work and Schooling.

[joshingjoshParticipant @joshingjosh]

Thanks for the advice. I might look at decently large milling machines and a lathe. I been looking at locomotives like Tich or Rob Roy for the simpler build but I want a locomotive that could pull along some of my friends. So a 5-inch gauge might be possible. But I should get started on a smaller project to at least learn how to machine properly. Do you know books that I should look into basics of milling and lathe? Can you send the link for Stewart Hart’s Potty Mill again?  I opened the link, but the file isn’t working.

[joshingjoshParticipant @joshingjosh]

I am going to look in the books, are there any website that has pdf file of the books that you said about? or a amazon link works too. Thank you so much!!!!

[joshingjoshParticipant @joshingjosh]

The Website is super useful, I have been thinking of making my garage into a workshop and it is decently big. I should be able to put tools and benches in there. The journeymen’s workshop will help a lot

[joshingjoshParticipant @joshingjosh]

I sent you an pm

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If you are in the US then an imperial design would be better to start with rather than Stuart Harts metric designs so look at some of “Elmer’s engines” online and if you want a small casting kit then PM Research are the US equivelent to Stuart models here and will be cheaper.

Might even want to look at some of the US loco  suppliers as it would save postage

[WearyParticipant @weary]

Rather than a UK type loco’ why not consider one of Kozo Hiroaka’s designs which are fully described for the ‘novice constructor’ in a series of illustrated books and use minimal or even no castings.  Castings for Hiraoka’s designs are readily available in the USA.  The basic designs are 3.5″ gauge but he also includes information for scaling-up to 4 3/4″ (or 5″) & 7 1/4 (or 7 1/2) gauges

Individual books cover: Heisler, Climax, Shay (two versions), Penn A3, and K-27 (two volume set).

A google search and youtube search will turn-up more info’.

A copy of Live Steam & Outdoor Railroading magazine will give possibly you lots of leads as an introduction.

Phil

[joshingjosh]

On joshingjosh Said:

It’s an uncommon American term for joking, and my name is Joshua.

Coined in America in 1860’s. Quite common in UK so surprised it has been queried.

Search for ‘Know your lathe’  which was the instruction manual for the SouthBend (which might be a good starting lathe – plenty around). Available in PDF in various places it was rewritten for the SB clones of Boxford and Hercus.

[joshingjosh]

On joshingjosh Said:

It’s an uncommon American term for joking, and my name is Joshua. I am from California, USA. My friends call me Joshing Josh as a nickname because I joke a lot. I appreciate everyone’s help in getting me started on Live Steam. I have been busy with Work and Schooling.

Delighted you are for real Joshua!  Sorry about the misunderstanding – you’ve probably guessed the forum is occassionally blessed with a few wasters who join the forum just to stir the pot, muddy the waters, or otherwise befuddle us for their amusement!

Nothing wrong with ‘josh’ as a word, though strictly speaking it’s slang.   My “Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English”, says it originates from Scottish and Northern British dialect ‘joss’, meaning to jostle or push against, hence banter.  Took off big time in the US during the late 19th century, probably because it linked with the humorist Josh Billings, a household name in the US.   An example:  ‘It ain’t what a man don’t know that makes him a fool, but what he does know that ain’t so.’   Joshing became mainstream in the UK during the 1930’s thanks to the talkies, but has slowly faded since then.

Sounds like you have the necessary space needed to set up a workshop.  Makes it much easier if stuff doesn’t have to be squeezed in: over here, land is expensive so homes, gardens, and garages tend to be small.

Jason mentioned metric vs English measurement.  Worth having a think about which suits you!   Not the end of the world if a newcomer buys metric equipment and then builds from English measure plans, or vice versa, but better to buy machines that match what you do.  Constantly converting from one system to the other is tedious and error-prone.  Or, because the US is the last-bastion of English measure, a local might prefer to stick with it.   English measure allows you to build to modern US plans and old British, but new British designs and anything from the rest of the world will be metric.   Your background may make a difference – US science has always been metric, and US industry is slowly going metric, so it may not be a problem.  Judging by Hollywood though, most Americans don’t understand metric at all!

And the idea that machines should be bought to match your particular interests suggests thinking about what those interests are.  Don’t buy a table-top lathe and expect to mend motorbikes!   Good news, if just starting out and unsure about what the goal is, there is one simple guideline:  buy big rather than small.   It’s because small work can be done on a big machine, but big work can’t be done on a tiddler.  Quite a lot of Model Engineer time is wasted when we have to mount an oversized job on a small machine.  Amazing what’s done, but it takes a lot of ingenuity, and there’s always a risk it might come loose.   Much easier if the machine does the job within it’s normal capacity.

Another hint: avoid starting with unknown scrap metal!   Pot luck, are they are good, bad or ugly?  Many alloys don’t machine well, and some are off-the-scale horrible.  Many stainless steels work-harden enough to defeat HSS cutters.   Instead, buy known metal where the spec says it has good machinability or is ‘free-cutting’.

Having learned how machinable metals behave, come back to scrap later.  This time problems with the material will be recognised, and knowing what to expect from the good stuff, the operator can adapt to it, or walk away.

Finally, don’t expect too much too quickly.   Basic turning and milling may not be rocket-science, but a skilled machinist takes years to develop even if a kind employer provides lots of training and a mentor.  Helps to have talent too.   Self taught types like me require lots of practice, and are liable to develop bad habits and clumsy methods.  For that reason  watch youtube videos critically.  Too many are posted by inexperienced people who think they’re doing a good job, but aren’t.  Be alert for bad practice, or the presenter doing something, often in the background, that’s positively dangerous.

Dave

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