Getting an ML7

[Peter Low 4Participant @peterlow4]

[Peter Low 4Participant @peterlow4]

Hi, I've been dipping into the forum recently, trying to get up to speed with the prospect of getting a small lathe. As a keen motorcyclist with ancient & modern bikes, I often have the need to make up a spacer or modify some bit, and initially I was thinking in terms of one of the modern chinese built bench top devices, and was very glad of the advice on this forum which steered me towards a Warco.

I'd been looking and asking around when a friend said he had his Dad's myford for sale if I was interested. Saw it yesterday, agreed the price, half the cost of a new small Warco! Seems to be in well looked after condition. It comes with its cabinet stand, but not much in the way of extra kit. motor has been detached for easier handling and I may be asking advice on reconnecting and choice of 4 jaw chucks etc.

I have used a lathe, but never had metalwork classes at school, despite which, I am a retired fabricater/welder. So i have lots to learn. The Myford will arrive next week and I'm busy making space for it.

Pete.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Pete,

I was brought up on a Myford lathe, an ML4 which my Dad bought new in 1945. For a seven year old kid it was a splendid machine and it came to me when he died in 1963.

I used it for much of the turning work on building the Dore Westbury milling machine, changed it for a nicely used ML7 owned by a friend and that too was exchanged for an ML7R; another carefully used lathe from an engineer I got to know quite well and whose work professionally I admired.

The stable has expanded somewhat and is now supported by a nice Smart and Brown Sable, the " posh" clone of the American Southbend lathe and more recently a Churchill Cub, a much larger capacity machine I have restored which was made in Halifax in 1947.

My favourite however is still the Myford and I think you will be only too happy with your new toy. Treat it with respect and care, you will get many years of good service from it.

Regards Brian

[john fletcher 1Participant @johnfletcher1]

In one of the early Model Engineering Workshop magazine s there was an article on making a clutch for an ML7. I made it and it worked good, I still have the article if you would like a copy. i think that is permissible, I'm sure some one will tell otherwise. John

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

For either short, or longer, term reference, it's worth considering re-motoring and installing a VFD. Even on my TriLeva the difference is worthwhile. My installation forced the removal of the drive belt guard but other ML's may not need it.

rgds

Bill

[Adrian 2Participant @adrian2]

Hello Pete,

My first lathe was a ML7R, bought new when I was in my early twenties. It cost about a grand back then and that didn't include a motor as I recall. Bought primarily for motorcycle work it served me faithfully for many years and did all I asked of it. I started off with just a self centering three jaw chuck and added extras as jobs demanded and funds allowed.

I am sure you will be pleased and maybe surprised at what it will be capable of.

Have fun.

Adrian.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

My first lathe was a ML7.

I found that it was sensitive to the way it was mounted. A hobby horse of mine is not having twist in the bed.

If the bed is twisted, the lathe will turn a taper, rather than parallel.

Oddly, L H Sparey in "The Amateur's Lathe" does not detail the method.

Ian Bradley in "The Amateur's Workshop" (pp 27 &28 ) details the same method on p42 of The Myford Series 7 Manual" (Not surprising since Ian Bradley wrote it. )

If you have access to a sensitive level, you could use that. Or with an Alignment bar, you could use this with a DTI as an alternative means to ensure that the bed is free from twist.

If you are going to have a 4 jaw independant chuck, you will need a DTI and, preferably, a magnetic base,

Possibly teaching granny to suck eggs, it is most unusual for a 3 Jaw chuck to hold work absolutely concentric.

With a 4 jaw. concentricity depends upon how much time and trouble you are prepared to spend on the job, or how much accuracy is needed.

..Lots of Myford exponents on here, to give advice.

HTH

Howard

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Welcome to the forum Peter,

Sounds like you found a good deal.

Do you know which model it is?

Neil

[Peter Low 4Participant @peterlow4]

A good deal indeed I think at £475 including the cabinet and cost of him delivering.

It arrives Sunday morning and I'm rearranging my workshop to suit and it should fit nicely. Its an ML7. Not sure of its age but seller says his dad had it "for about 40 years"

I've been reading Sparey and Bradley to try and get a bit up to speed, but a lot is still a bit mysterious, most of all the intricacies of chucks and their backplates. But I'm sure lots will become clearer once I've got it installed.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Peter,

Sounds like you got a good bargain.

Make haste slowly!

Hopefully 3 and 4 jaw chucks come with the machine, so you do not need to worry immediately how to turn backplates for them. Hopefully some measuring equipment such as Micrometer(s ), DTIs and a stand or magnetic base will come as well, or be available.

As you become familiar with the machine, (Tool grinding will be an early skill to acquire. High Speed Steel is my suggestion ) and make a Centre Height Gauge, makes setting up so much easier.

As a practical person.you don't need to be told not to be too ambitious. As an Apprentice one of the first things that I was taught was how to turn a feed wheel at a consistent speed! Drill sharpening came much later.

A great deal of enjoyment stretches ahead of you.

Howard

[Peter Low 4Participant @peterlow4]

Unfortunately it has only a 3 jaw self centering chuck. A friend who used to have a Myford has passed on a face plate to me but I will be looking for a 4 jaw independant jawed chuck. I didn't see any micrometers, dial guages etc with it, but we will see what does turn up with it.

Fortunately tool grinding is something I have experience of even if it has been mostly sharpening twist drills. I am also expecting that my welding abilities will enable some "bits of angle welded to a bit of plate" solutions to some setting up tasks.

The very first job will be a very, very simple one, hewing about 3mm off a wheel spacer for my '52 Ariel Red Hunter.

[Peter Low 4Participant @peterlow4]

Well it arrived Sunday morning with a couple of boxes of bewildering bits. I now have it squeezed ito my work room and mounted on its cabinet.

[Peter Low 4Participant @peterlow4]

Oops!

Not sure how to add a photo.

Theres just room for my toolchest draws to open at the drive end and just room to get at my bench drill at the tail stock end, and just room for the motor to clear the wall.

I'll post qestion about how to wire it up when I know how to attache photos.

[MeunierParticipant @meunier]

Follow these instructions for adding photos.

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=103028

DaveD

[Peter Low 4Participant @peterlow4]

I trudged through all that in the FAQs section. Made my brain hurt. Other forums I'm on, you just click on the "insert" icon below the post you are writing and you pick the photo you want from your own files. Why does it have to be so difficult?

I've got enough new tricks to learn figuring out what to do, and what not to do with this lathe, my aging brain can't cope with learning new computer tricks at the same time.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Hi Peter. It is not hard once done. Just go to Albums. In there create an album with any name you want. Then upload from your P.C etc to the album. Done.

Then once there you can drop them onto your page you are typing on by using the Camera icon. Just remember to be at the end of your txt before doing this or you end up with a picture sometime above or in the middle of what you have wrote.

Clear as mud.

Steve.

[Peter Low 4Participant @peterlow4]

Ok, thanks Steve, I'll have a go when I'm in a better mood for that kind of stuff.

[Peter Low 4Participant @peterlow4]

Ok, I seem to have created an album. Thanks Neil & Steve. Like you said, its so simple. I was just thrown by so many comments in the FAQs, seeming to make it difficult.

So for staters, the urgent matter of getting blue smoke to the relevant bits of the machine.

Its Brooks "Gryphon" motor, single phase and the switch is the " Dewhurst" with forward and reverse. The wiring to the switch and from it is intact. Only the connections to the motor are disconnected, as often happens I guess removal of the motor making the lathe easier to move.

Cables from the switch, to connect to the motor are: 2 red, 2 black & 1 green. So remembering the old colours, green would be earth, red Live, & black neutral, but obviously 2 reds and 2 blacks are puzzling. (See photo)

The Brooks motor has 3 connections: Internal wires, black to one connector, red to the next connector, and another red with a tag with "Z" (or possibly "N&quot to the 3rd connector. There is also a black wire coming from the motor unconnected. (see photo)

[Peter Low 4Participant @peterlow4]

Oh well, don't know why it didn't show the other photos I thought I put in the album, but at least, that's the important one.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Put one picture in & then repeat for any more

Steve.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by Peter Low 4 on 25/08/2020 16:35:33:

Ok, I seem to have created an album. Thanks Neil & Steve. Like you said, its so simple. I was just thrown by so many comments in the FAQs, seeming to make it difficult.

So for staters, the urgent matter of getting blue smoke to the relevant bits of the machine.

Its Brooks "Gryphon" motor, single phase and the switch is the " Dewhurst" with forward and reverse. The wiring to the switch and from it is intact. Only the connections to the motor are disconnected, as often happens I guess removal of the motor making the lathe easier to move.

Cables from the switch, to connect to the motor are: 2 red, 2 black & 1 green. So remembering the old colours, green would be earth, red Live, & black neutral, but obviously 2 reds and 2 blacks are puzzling. (See photo)

The Brooks motor has 3 connections: Internal wires, black to one connector, red to the next connector, and another red with a tag with "Z" (or possibly "N" to the 3rd connector. There is also a black wire coming from the motor unconnected. (see photo)

 

Hi Peter.

You have 4 motor wires to the switch because all the start winding and the run winding connections were  taken to the switch, your motor connectors look in poor condition and need checking out.

Do you have an ML7 manual? I think it is properly called ‘notes on operation, installation and maintenance’ an internet search might work.

Be very wary of the wiring on old Myfords it can be very dodgy from age and users dabbling etc so needs proper testing and inspection and a rewire often makes sense, e.g. plain green earth wire went out in the 1970s.
Do you have suitable electrical work experience? I’m not being rude there!

V8Eng.

 

Edited By V8Eng on 28/08/2020 15:49:06

[Peter Low 4Participant @peterlow4]

Thanks.

No offence taken. I'm Ok on sorting dodgy electrics on old bikes, but 240 volts mains supply is deffinitely not something I'm comfortable with. I don't have much spare cash, and so I'm anxious not to spend too much on what may not be the best solution. Quite handy for me is "The Electric Motor Man" at Ilminster. I visited him yesterday and he was helpful, doing his best , to explain how I should check which wire does what. Fortunately he is very familiar with Myfords.

I think I can check out the wires coming from the switch as he suggested, but as the terminals on the motor are not marked, I cannot see how I can determine which terminals serve which set of windings. The Motor man did point out that even if the Dewhurst switch worked, it may not do so for much longer and explained he can supply a new switch, and a new 3/4hp motor if need be. He also suggested getting an electrician to sort out the wiring, but of course there is cost involed there and so I wonder whether the smart move would be to go for a modern swith and motor, preferably with wiring instructions which I could follow.

[DMRParticipant @dmr]

Peter,
I cannot read the rating plate on your motor. Does it definitely say it is single phase? Just 3 terminals suggest 3 phase. is there a 4th hole just visible behind that bit of masking tape?
You now say there are no terminal markings. That is unusual. Is it possible to view the underside of the terminal block for any markings? It just may have been put back the wrong way up and rigged for some other purpose – non Myford. The screw on the frame at bottom right of your picture is the earth connection. Do you have a meter to measure resistance (ohms)?
Can you take the cover off the capacitor and take pictures of its connections and any evidence you can see of internal connections. Two reds, 2 Blacks and a green (for earth) are fairly common from the Dewhurst switch but do those connections come directly from the switch or is there an 8 way terminal block somewhere that your motor cable comes from?
Someone from Ilminster area may come in here and help you out directly. Whatever you do, do not apply power until someone has made sense of it for you. You have not loaded any pictures of the rest of the machine but evidence of rust on the motor pulley suggest it has not been run for a long time and may not be part of your machine.

Tread carefully for now. Dennis

[john fletcher 1Participant @johnfletcher1]

Peter that is an old motor, it immediately requires an Insulation test using a 500 volt Insulation tester often a Megger. your mate the MOTOR man should have one, or see your friendly electrician, he'll have one. Once you have proved that the insulation is good on all four wires to earth then you can sort out which wire is which. Have you got access to a multimeter of any kind ? If so, set the meter to low Ohms range and with one lead connected to any wire poke around with the second lead until you find a complete circuit and its record its resistance. Mark the pair some way. Do the same with the other pair, you have four wires showing.. The pair with the highest resistance value will be the START pair Z! & Z2 connect them to 6 & 2 on the Dewhurst switch. The other pair which is the lowest resistance connect to 5 & 7.Supply to 3 & 1. i notice you didn't mention a capacitor attached to the motor. I hope that will be of assistance. John

[Peter Low 4Participant @peterlow4]

Thanks guys. Sorry that was not the clearest photo. The plate has "1" stamped in the box maked "PH" so I assemd that would be "single phase"

The history is as follows. The lathes serial number dates it as 1974. I bought it from a guy I know and it had been his Dad's. Dad now past away Richard wanted to sell it on (he runs a Boxford) He said as far as he could remember, his dad had it for about 40 years which would make it not an old lathe when he first had it. I don't know when it was last run, but I can ask. Rust on the motor pulley I do not think is significant. The lathe was stored in a lock up. Not a wet one, but not as dry as your average workshop and when placed there no particular precautions seem to have been taken in that respect. The lathe in general has not suffered.

I realise that the motor could be older than the lathe. I haven't taken the board out of the connection box yet. But also not visible in the photo, under the red lead with clth tag marked "Z" there is a vacant hole which would have had a 4th terminal in it. Perversly, this has the only marking on the visible side of the board, with a rather feeble torch, I think its marked "A".

The Motor man's view was that this once had the black wire from the motor that is currently not connected and he thought it Ok th use a "chocolate block" scew connector to make the 4th connection. Unfortunately he's away at the moment so I'll have to wait to pick his brains on it. So I tend to agee that there may well be something odd in its history as a motor.

The unconnected black lead visible in the photo can be seen to have pale discoloured area towards its end. I suspect that this is the trace of a similar adhesive tag, like the one marked " Z" on the red wire. So when I have a go at identifying wires, hopefully tomorrow it will be interesting to find out what might have been on the missing tag!

Friendly electrician? Is there such a thing ? Moved here 3 years ago and haven't met one yet. Not at their prices anyway. But I admit, if I'm going to use this elderly set up, It'll make sense to get it checked.

I'm actually near Langport, but anybody who'd like to call in and offer encouragement will be very welcome and refreshment will be available.

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