Gasless MIG

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Recently ran out of Argon/CO2 gas and horrified with the price increase of the small disposable bottles (from 32€ about 2 years ago to over 64€ now).  I have a roll of 0.9mm Gasless wire, so have had a go. Watched a few videos to alter the technique from Gas MIG (Changed the wires over on the MIG welder and the feed wheel / nozzle).

I am trying to weld 1mm walled square tube with mixed results (a bit messy).

Two questions:–

Are there different qualities of Gasless wire ?

Should I be using thinner wire (If available) ?

Bob

[peak4Participant @peak4]

I’ve never used gasless MIG, and am currently running CO2 on my Cebora 140 which is less than ideal, but what do you mean when you say changed the wires over? Are you using a welder designed for gasless wire?
Do you mean the electrical wires?
I understand that gas and gasless use opposite electrical polarities.

Bill

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

It takes a little practise, and the flux makes it a bit more difficult to see the weld pool. It’s recommended to drag rather push to prevent slag inclusions. Other than that, fiddle with the settings to get it right.

Once you’ve got used to it, it works well, and is invaluable if you’re working outside on a windy day. Also, in a confined space e..g. when car fixing, you can take the gas shroud off the torch (since it’s not doing anything) which improves visibility. Put a bit of heat-shrink tube over the exposed part of the nozzle to stop stuff sticking to it, and prevent it arcing if you knock the side of it on anything grounded.

My welder takes 0.8mm wire, so that’s what I use.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Bill, for Gasless welding on my “GYS” set you change the output wires about (I don’t know why) and there is a panel on the side of the welder giving access to the terminal wires. I assume its something to do with the polarity of the torch/ground clamp ???

Thanks Andy for the tip about removing the shroud.

Bob

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

When working on thin material the difference between 0.8 and 0.6 mm is very noticable Thought not sure you could get 0.6mm coated wire ? Noel

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Speedy.

Yes, some gasless is horrible.

0.9 gasless is nearly 0.6 solid metal content wise.

[Dave Halford]

On Dave Halford Said:

Speedy.

Yes, some gasless is horrible.

That’s interesting, Dave. My welder came with a sample spool of wire, and at first I found it difficult to get a decent result – I put it down to inexperience with the technique, but maybe the wire quality didn’t help.

I’ve subsequently used this and found it satisfactory:

https://tinyurl.com/ymht2hjm

[noel shelley]

On noel shelley Said:

When working on thin material the difference between 0.8 and 0.6 mm is very noticable Thought not sure you could get 0.6mm coated wire ? Noel

Yes Noel you can get gasless wire in 0.6mm. I have both MS & SS wires. Can be a bit of a learning curve.  I have found using gasless wire in my Co2 gas guzzling welder is possible also. Not possible  to change the polarity on the old girl but still got a reasonable weld on SS.

[old foolParticipant @old-fool]

Been reading all the above, never tried gasless. One thing I would check with a “gas guzzling” mig is that the bottle is empty! I have a Clark 100E, the regulator for the gas is not really a regulator at all. The bottle has a tyre-valve in the top and the regulator is just a pin wound onto the pin in the valve. As the pressure drops in the bottle you need to open the valve a little more. That was where I had problem. The regulator pin was not going down far enough, so gas ran out when there was still half a bottle! I took the regulator unit apart and put a bit of packing in to make it travel farther. I think it was something like a 4 or 6BA washer. Now bottles seem everlasting. That’s tempting fate. I spose next time I use it it’ll be empty

Bob

[Dave Halford]

On Dave Halford Said:

Speedy.

Yes, some gasless is horrible.

0.9 gasless is nearly 0.6 solid metal content wise.

Update.

In the UK a small weldpool bottle with 10lbs of co2 to refill costs £51 compared to £23 for 600g disposable.

We pay £90 at first so the bottle one off hire is £40. So we get the first bottle £70 cheaper with the next £120 cheaper.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Some interesting points there, thanks all.

Bob

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

For over 30 years I used nothing but Co2 on an admitedly very expensive machine, the gas came from a local pub. Though many pubs use nitrogen/ Co2, some beers still need Co2, it can work out quite cheap ! I have never tried the so called gasless MIG, never had the need, it’s NOT MIG, it is stick welding, just the stick is very thin and comes coiled on a reel. Some firms that refill Co2 fire extinguishers may be able to refill a bottle if you have one. Good luck. Noel.

[old fool]

On old fool Said:

Been reading all the above, never tried gasless. One thing I would check with a “gas guzzling” mig is that the bottle is empty! I have a Clark 100E, the regulator for the gas is not really a regulator at all. The bottle has a tyre-valve in the top and the regulator is just a pin wound onto the pin in the valve. As the pressure drops in the bottle you need to open the valve a little more. That was where I had problem. The regulator pin was not going down far enough, so gas ran out when there was still half a bottle! I took the regulator unit apart and put a bit of packing in to make it travel farther. I think it was something like a 4 or 6BA washer. Now bottles seem everlasting. That’s tempting fate. I spose next time I use it it’ll be empty

Bob

Some of the big stuff I weld takes a lot of amps and plenty of gas (co2) to get through a job. Some times using the welder for 7 to 8 hrs a day.

[PeroParticipant @pero]

I can only comment on my own welder and the advice received when I purchased it from BOC (in Australia as CIG at the time – which was many moons ago)).

With respect to feed rollers, there are a different rollers for gas and gasless wire. The gasless wire rollers have ‘serrated’ grooves and are designed to operate at lower pressure to avoid crushing the wire (flux filled tube). There are different size pairs of rollers  (the groove not the roller) for each size of wire gasless wire. Again to provide efficient feed without crushing the wire and breaking up the continuity of the flux.

My experience is that things do not go well if you are using the wrong rollers – although some combinations may work, if not entirely properly.

The comment re MIG or non-MIG is interesting as it depends on what the flux is doing – in either case. If the flux, or part of the flux, is vaporizing and forming an inert cloud around the weld point then it is MIG welding whether it is stick or gasless MIG welding and the terminology is just a matter of common use. If it is not then a more appropriate term for gasless welding might be wire welding, a term I have seen used before but  am not certain of the context in which it was applied.

A bit along the lines of the terms silver soldering versus silver brazing.

Pero

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

When an industrial process gets in to the hands of the ad fellows and then into the domestic market all sorts of interesting terminology will come into play, often not correct or true. The very term MIG, The I is for inert as in the gas. If using Co2 then this is MAG, A = Active gas, and as no gas in the Gasless version we are left with just M, now it’s getting silly ! Wire welding, that makes sense ! What happens in the molten weld pool is of little consequence to the fellow welding up an old car but if said weld is a critical point where failure has consequences then it is different.

A poor quality and under powered machine for the job, used by an untrained or incompetent person is a very dangerous mix. That the weld may look OK just makes the matter worse ! I was on the receiving end of such a mix, that had potentially fatal results !

Peros mention of feed rollers, there are numerous types, at least in part down to how much you pay, then there is the steadyness or not of the drive motor, ranging from cheap small permag motor to high quality flat motors, add stepped controls – Oh what fun !

Sorry ! None of this helps the OP ! I’m sure there will be good and bad wire, but if you can get it in small reels, don’t know. I would try a smaller wire if available then you will need the right feed rollers. It would be better to just pay up one way or another and do the job properly. Good Luck. Noel.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, although CO2 isn’t classed as an inert gas, for the purpose of welding, it is considered to be inert, as it has no reaction to hot molten steel, so can be considered as MIG welding. Pure Argon is mostly used for TIG welding, but an Argon mixture is often used for MIG welding steel, but you would use pure Argon for MIG welding aluminium.

Regards Nick.

[Author]

Posts