Further Adventures with the Sieg KX3 & KX1

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You'll be lucky!

[Ian Johnson 1Participant @ianjohnson1]

Nice work Jason and that 's' shaped piece was held nice and firmly by those two screws

Ian

[Sarah FParticipant @sarahf]

Hi,

I have had a break of a few years using my KX1 mill and one job I wanted to do last time I used it was to check the spindle speed, I always thought it was on the low side. As I'm waiting for some new cutters I did a spindle speed test and got the following results. I did check the tachometer on a couple of other machines and it seems quite accurate.

Requested RPM Actual RPM

1000 831
2000 1721
3000 2573
4000 3422
5000 4318
6000 5223
7000 6007

I was surprised it was that far out. I found an article on KX1 motor tuning and tried to adjust the spindle motor movement profile. I increased the Velocity and was pleased when I achieved 7,000rpm within 50rpm. I saved the axis settings, pressed okay and went back to the normal display. Unfortunately next time I selected a spindle speed it had dropped again. I checked the spindle motor movement profile again, it had retained the new Velocity figures but the Step Pulse had changed from 4us to 3us. though I tried quite a few things I cant get Mach3 to retain the Step Pulse figure. The setting were: Steps per: 100, Velocity 6000 (changed to 7800), Acceleration: 500, G's: 0.050988, Step Pulse 4 (system changed to 3).

Has anyone else changed the spindle speed ? There are a few variables on the Motor Tuning page, but I dont know what they really do and I'm reluctant to change things that I don't understand in case I damage anything.

i would again be grateful for any help.

Many thanks,

Sarah

[Andrew JohnstonParticipant @andrewjohnston13878]

I managed to fine tune spindle speed some years ago in Mach3 and I don't recall it being that difficult. However I was using the Tormach version of Mach3, so that might have been subtly different. I no longer have the system as I now use Tormach PathPilot; altogether leaps and bounds ahead of Mach3. I'm amazed the speeds are so far out. I think mine were only a percent or two. I wanted them accurate for use with a tension/compression tapping head.

Andrew

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Have not felt the need to check the speed of my KX3 but will get the tacho out tomorrow and see what it is running at.

Don't suppose you have hit the 10% override a couple of times?

[Sarah FParticipant @sarahf]

i was surprised as well that the speeds are that far out. I did think it was simple, I just changed the Velocity value from 6000 to 7800 and it was just right. It just wouldn't retain the pulse width value, I tried saving the values in slightly different ways but I couldn't get the pulse width to stay at 4us. I did wonder if the difference in velocity values was responsible?

I didn't hit the over ride, just double checked anyway.  I would be grateful for your Mach3 settings.

Regards,

Sarah

Edited By Sarah on 09/04/2020 15:57:56

[Ian Johnson 1Participant @ianjohnson1]

Hi Sarah I adjusted the top speed of my KX1 from 5000rpm to 7000rpm! It was an easy process in the settings and I don't remember altering the pulse settings, but it was a long time ago and I've had a sleep since then!

I rely on mach 3 to tell me what revs the machine is doing. Might be time to check my machine too!

Ian

[Sarah FParticipant @sarahf]

Hi Ian,

Would you be able to let me have your settings please 😊

The pulse settings changed them selves from 4us to 3us after I increased the velocity, which then put the speed back down. Jus coildnt get them to change back to 4us.

 

Thanks.

Edited By Sarah on 09/04/2020 17:47:44

[Adam StevensonParticipant @adamstevenson91624]

You will need a speed testing device to check the speeds. Click on the config menu and select the Motor Tuning item. This will bring up the Motor Tuning window.
Next click on the spindle button THIS IS IMPORTANT.
Now if the spindle is running slow then you will need to increase the velocity and decrease it to slow it down.
(Required Vel) = [Required RPM] X [current Vel] / [Measured RPM]
Click on SAVE AXIS SETTINGS and then on OK then enter 1000 in the speed DRO and test the spindle with the speed testing device.
You will have to adjust this a few times till it's within 10% (100rpm).
Then test other speeds like 2000, 2500 and 5000 [Older KX3 is 3500 max] again these should be within 10% of the speed if not try adjusting the velocity by just 1 or even 0.1
It pays to check the settings have been saved after any changes as different computers read the XML files differently.

[Andrew JohnstonParticipant @andrewjohnston13878]

I suspect that what I did isn't relevant. Looking at the manual I changed a parameter in a settings folder to get a specific frequency shown on the VFD display. So clearly I'm running an induction motor. I don't know what motor the Sieg machines use.

Andrew

[Sarah FParticipant @sarahf]

Hi Adam,

Thank you for typing all that in 😊 That's the procedure that I used, worked fine as I increased the Velocity value until it was within 10 rpm, then I pressed the Save Axis Settings and Okay. Back at the main screen I types in the speed required and it sounded a bit slow again. I tacho'ed it again and the speed had dropped. When I checked the Motor Tuning and Setup screen it had retained my new Velocity figure, but the Step Pulse had dropped from 4 to 3us. Changing it to 4 brought the speed back up, but whenever I left that screen it reverted to 3us. Got quite frustrated!

I don't know if I need to alter the Steps per parameter?

Regards,

Sarah

[Ian Johnson 1Participant @ianjohnson1]

Posted by Sarah on 09/04/2020 17:46:59:

Hi Ian,

Would you be able to let me have your settings please 😊

The pulse settings changed them selves from 4us to 3us after I increased the velocity, which then put the speed back down. Jus coildnt get them to change back to 4us.

Thanks.

Edited By Sarah on 09/04/2020 17:47:44

Yes I'll have a look for you Sarah probably tomorrow because I've got a virtual pub quiz to take part in tonight!

[Sarah FParticipant @sarahf]

Posted by Ian Johnson 1 on 09/04/2020 19:34:56:

Posted by Sarah on 09/04/2020 17:46:59:

Hi Ian,

Would you be able to let me have your settings please 😊

The pulse settings changed them selves from 4us to 3us after I increased the velocity, which then put the speed back down. Jus coildnt get them to change back to 4us.

Thanks.

Edited By Sarah on 09/04/2020 17:47:44

Yes I'll have a look for you Sarah probably tomorrow because I've got a virtual pub quiz to take part in tonight!

I hope you enjoy your virtual pub quiz, I hope the beer is not virtual 😉

Best wishes,

Sarah

[Adam StevensonParticipant @adamstevenson91624]

Try setting it to 5us and the computer will round it down to 4us. They were only rated for 5,000 due to stepping issues. It is down to the PC putting enough steps, both high and low, to drive the spindle at the speed.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Adam, Sarah has a KX1 so should be good for 7000?

[Adam StevensonParticipant @adamstevenson91624]

Machine yes it will work with good feed rates and tooling but it is the computers that caused the bigger issues we had with support. Entering a 5us might round down because of PC maths working fine while the tuning wizard is open but rounds down when the window closes.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Just put the infra-red tacho onto mine, all very close except at 4000rpm which was a bit off

5K = 5009

4K = 4170

3K = 3030

2K = 1995

1K = 1017

 

This is the tuning screen settings are as it came to me. click to see larger

 

Edited By JasonB on 10/04/2020 10:32:39

Edited By JasonB on 10/04/2020 10:36:18

[Adam StevensonParticipant @adamstevenson91624]

Hi Jason, are you using a USB breakout board?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes, mine was one of the last ones Ketan had.

[Adam StevensonParticipant @adamstevenson91624]

Ah so the step and dir pulse don't matter, as the breakout has an on-board timer, and they only change a parallel port output. The 4,100 is OK, you can try a few about that speed as it might be a tacho blip point, the reason we used to say 100 rpm at 5,000 was fine.

Sarah if you get chance to set the step pulse to 5us you might have to set it everytime you save the motor tuning. Some computers cannot crate the number of steps but if it has worked on that PC might be a simple mater fudging the values to get a clear signal for the drivers and spindle controller.

[Ian Johnson 1Participant @ianjohnson1]

Posted by Sarah on 09/04/2020 19:37:30:

Posted by Ian Johnson 1 on 09/04/2020 19:34:56:

Posted by Sarah on 09/04/2020 17:46:59:

Hi Ian,

Would you be able to let me have your settings please 😊

The pulse settings changed them selves from 4us to 3us after I increased the velocity, which then put the speed back down. Jus coildnt get them to change back to 4us.

 

Thanks.

Edited By Sarah on 09/04/2020 17:47:44

Yes I'll have a look for you Sarah probably tomorrow because I've got a virtual pub quiz to take part in tonight!

I hope you enjoy your virtual pub quiz, I hope the beer is not virtual 😉

 

Best wishes,

Sarah

Hi Sarah here is a photo of my KX1 Z motor drive settings. (Edited to include the photo above which I forgot to post! )

Steps per = 500

Velocity = 1000.2

Acceleration = 100

G's = 0.0101976

Step pulse = 0

Dir pulse = 0

 

A little bit different from your settings. No idea if they are the 'correct' settings but they seem to work okay. It's a USB KX1 by the way if that makes any difference?

 

Oh and I got 25 out of 50 in last night's virtual pub quiz 😁

Ian

Edited By Ian Johnson 1 on 10/04/2020 17:28:57

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Another bit of profiling with the work screwed to some scrap for you Sarah. The counterbored holes that will take short lengths of rod on the finished part were used to hold the work with M2.5 cap head screws.

The profile has 2mm radius at each end of the main 25mm radius which was cut at the full 16mm height with one of ARCs long series HSS aluminium specific cutters, this time run at 5000rpm, 0.4mm DOC rouging and 0.2mm finish pass all at 250mm/min all climb cutting

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Sarah, is it possible that the pulley settings are limiting the maximum spindle revs. If you are not using the pulley settings anywhere just set the max in all of them above what you are ever going to run at.

Martin C

[Sarah FParticipant @sarahf]

Hi Guys,

Thank you for the photographs of your spindle settings, your figures are very different to each others and also to mine as well. I've added a photo of mine below. The three machines are:

Steps per.      Velocity.       Acceleration

1.                     120.               4

500.                 1000.2.        100

100.                 6000.            500

 

A few questions for you if you don't mind.

I understand what 'Steps per' do on the X, Y, Z axis relating to the stepper motors and ball screw drives, but what does it do on the Spindle Speed and why are our three machines so different?

 

Why are the Velocity and Acceleration figures also so different for the three machines?

 

I removed Mach3 and the Sieg setup files from my PC, then installed them again to make sure I had the default setting. If I go into the Motor Tuning screen, don't change anything and exit by just closing the X on the top right of the screen the Step Pulse won't change from 4us. However if I go into the Motor Tuning screen and click on the OK button to leave the screen, then when I go back into the Motor Tuning screen again it has changed to 3us. It will retain a value of 3us and 5 us.

When it does change the Step Pulse to 3us, or a value of 5us, this changes the value for the X, Y and Z axis as well and changes how the axis are driven. Will driving the X, Y and Z axis at 5us cause any problems?

 

I can match the measured and demanded spindle speeds if I do change the Step Pulse to 5us, but I'm wary of changing bits I don't really understand.

 

Thanks for the video's and pictures of your work on your machining, giving me a good idea of what to do. I'll post some of mine soon hopefully.  I wouldn't have thought of fixing a bit to be machines to the side of a chunk of aluminium, it will make a bit I need to machine a lot easier thanks.

 

I appreciate your help, hope I'm not asking too many questions, I'm just eager to learn.

 

Best wishes,

Sarah

 

 

Edited By Sarah on 12/04/2020 09:38:58

Edited By Sarah on 12/04/2020 09:41:50

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Sarah, going by what Adam (Son of the late John Stevenson) said both mine and Ian's are connected by USB so our speeds are controlled differently to your earlier parallel port machine which is why I have nothing on the spindle screen and would think Ian's would be the same though he only showed the X axis..

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