Forum and now MEW Going downhill pointless article in MEW 335

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I’ve never had any experience with casting or pattern making, but I did have to repair quite a number of pairs of mould boxes for a well know bearing company, each of the pairs were about 16″ x 20″ and 9″ deep, these were for casting their cast iron housings. Most of them had the pin hole blocks worn, where the hardened bushes for the alignment pins fitted into, which had to be cut off and new ones made and welded back in place, as you may understand, these had to be aligned very accurately after they were welded in and cooled down, so each of the pairs of the boxes were straitened up, and splits etc. welded up first, and then the blocks were cut off, but the new blocks were a little thicker, so that had to be taken into account, which actually made cutting the old ones off easier.

However, a little bit of tweaking could be done to the box, to get their partners pins to slide in nice and smoothly, the pins being 6″ x 3/4″. Luckily, I only had them in at about five pairs at a time.

Photo above shows a block with a worn bush hole, a worn bush and a pin with the thread that holds it in place, busted off, and this pin was also worn below tolerance, and many others were also below tolerance and some were even slightly bent as well.

Regards Nick.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Not being a model maker, am not a ME subscriber.

Subscribe to MEW, and have articles published occasionally.

(The fees are rotated between three charities, who need the payments more than I do)

I use a lot of photos, because one photo can ilustrate, or reinforce, a point far better than a lot of words.

In the past, trying work purely from text, struggled, and then realised that I had misunderstood the text and was holding the work incorrectly.

Howard

[Malcolm TimmisParticipant @malcolmtimmis62417]

Mac Timmis.

Not sure if this is the right place to say this, being a new comer, only eighteen months.

Model engineer used to have the title Model Engineer and Amateur Electrician. The trend now seems to be more of the latter than the former. Progress is inevitable but, choices can be made as what is more appropriate for the general readership who, are deciding for themselves what they want, and looking elsewhere. I am fortunate that I have early nineteen hundred bound copies to read and be inspired by, despite the small print. I suspect that back copies will become more popular as the content in the sixties and seventies was more in tune with what readers wanted.

It’s not only the content that needs revision. The web-site is still failing to perform even basic task’s. I have a Viceroy Lathe for sale on the site, lack of communication via the web-site has lost me the first potential buyer, if Keith Anderson reads this he will now no why we never met. Two other buyers have nearly met the same fate, only rescued by inserting my E-mail address for ongoing contact.

If I have posted this in the wrong section I apologies.

Mac Timmis

[Chris Crew]

On Chris Crew Said:

 

……….Isn’t some of this indicative of the situation the hobby itself may be in? When I look at the probable age profile of the MES, that I have been a member of since 1964, it is mostly all in the senior citizen bracket, the same as when I was observing the attendance of this year’s major exhibitions. Yes, there are some younger faces, although I would suggest many of them haven’t had the benefit of a practical contribution to their education in a school metal-work shop, but they will have a better idea than many of us older ones may ever have when working on a computer. (I accept there are older people who are very capable on computers but, I would suggest, probably not the majority).

How far us more senior citizens may have slipped behind the learning curve was brought home to me this year. The MES, to which I belong, decided to build some additional riding and driving cars and the Committee asked for volunteers to the project, of which I was one. I fully expected to be spending a few evenings on the hacksaw and file chewing out the platework for the chassis etc. as I had done when I had first attempted to build a locomotive many years ago now. Not a bit of it! A meeting was convened on a Saturday morning and a laptop with a CAD program was projected on to the clubroom screen. A basic outline of the parts was drawn, by someone well-versed in the new ways of working, and suggestions were taken before the final design was agreed. A file was then immediately sent electronically to a laser cutting firm and the finished parts were returned within a week, needing only to be tacked together with a stick welder. I knew I was behind the times but I was truly amazed at all this and the fact that we had the chassis of five new riding cars assembled within days!

So I am not surprised many more CAD related articles and ideas are showing up in the hobby press. I have to say that they mean very little to me, as the above might indicate, but the Club is proposing to run a CAD school in the near future and I will the first in line to at least try to get an appreciation of the new ways of working. We will never see the likes of LBSC, Tubal Cain, Geometer or Duplex again but there will be their contemporary equivalents and lets hope that it brings a much needed younger element into the hobby so that it may survive into the future in same tradition that Percival Marshall perceived back in 1898. That is to support all interested amateurs in furthering their knowledge and skill in modelling and engineering. The world and technology has changed since those days so it really should not come as a great surprise that the hobby is evolving with it.

I think Chris hits the nail on the head here where he talks about filing and hacksawing; In the past, the only way to machine accurate metal parts was manually and with skilled and experienced operators. Those skilled operators knew how to mark things out, how to measure properly and how to machine to high accuracy and very small tolerances.

To do this, required large, expensive and solid lathes, mills etc. and a solid apprenticeship.

Nowadays, a lot of those skilled people want to continue their love of metalworking but have to use old but good hobby machines or new but variable quality and performance cheaper machines, all of which have their inaccuracies and draw-backs.

I nearly went down the route of buying a lathe and a mill, but having read about the problems with hobby metalworking on this forum and others, I decided to go down the 3D printing route instead.

For reasons too boring, I have never had my own workshop or even a decent bench and vice, so all my woodworking and metalworking has been free-hand and often done on the floor of the garage, or on a B&D workmate with hand held tools and power tools.

 

But with a 3D printer, I can design, CAD, and 3D print items to a much better accuracy, and much finer detail; down to tenths of a millimetre – woeful for metal parts, I know – but more than adequate for all sorts of brackets and widgets I make for items around the house, e.g. a new top for the bird feeder, spacers for curtain rails, better support brackets for new wall lights, a tool to turn the lock-shield valves on my radiators, protective housings for my electronic test gear etc. – all sorts of useful fittings can be designed and 3D printed. And I can do that without a workshop with a £300 3D printer and a £20 reel of filament, whereas I would probably spend ten times that for a decent lathe, mill and tooling, and would need significant dedicated space in which to put them. And some of the things I make I would not know how to make on a mill, or if I did would require thousands of pounds worth of special tooling and fixtures.

Obviously, I could not make a locomotive or a working steam engine out of plastic on a 3D printer, but as Chris illustrates; there is no harm in laying out a chassis in CAD and having someone laser cut the pieces for you – and you get a much better finished result. You still need the skill to design and lay out the rails and the fitting holes etc.

I also don’t have to worry about expensive machine tools and tooling going rusty, or building safe variable speed drives and housing 3 phase motor supplies etc.

I always remember my Dad, rest his soul, painting a sign on a piece of wood for a party, and I thought, ‘that looks so amateurish; why doesn’t he write the sign on the computer and have the computer divide and print it over 5 pieces of A4 (that you tape together to make one big sign) ? – it would look so much better and more professional’ Answer; because paint on a piece of wood was the only way he knew how to write a large sign, since that was the only way you could do it in his youth.

 

So, CAD, laser cutting and CNC machines have to be the way to go, and will enable more people to create accurate work without a workshop, but not necessarily doing all the actual metal cutting themselves. No sense really holding on to marking things out with blue dye and a surface plate. Kids and young adults are simply not going to bother with that, or taking the time and care to learn to do it accurately enough.

The key to MEW will be to embrace new technology but not to lose the old skills and accuracy, just repurpose those abilities.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Reply to the last couple of posts

Mac

Although ME did indeed used to be called ME&AE it has tended to remain mostly Model Engineering related over recent years. However since splitting in two and MEW being published you will find most electronics related article sin there be it about VFDs, Arduos, ELS, CNC conversions etc.

Regarding the classifieds, I see far less problems with people not being able to make contact since the change. Before it there were regular posts and PMs about sellers being contacted but having no way to reply to initial enquiries so to me it is a big improvement.

John

At least there will be one reader for some upcoming articles I have just completed the photos and videos for that will be in MEW and show how the newer technologies can be used to develop an initial concept into finished parts. Nothing too in depth so there won’t be loads of lines of dreaded G-code or how to use a specific CAD system but just some practical examples that hopefully most can relate to.

[John Doe 2]

On John Doe 2 Said:

On Chris Crew Said:

 

…

…
Obviously, I could not make a locomotive or a working steam engine out of plastic on a 3D printer…

Well, don’t give up! I’ve attempted two steam engines in 3D-printed plastic, albeit intended to run on compressed air.   Main problem is friction. Although the parts fit and can be made to turn, plastic isn’t in the same slippery league as oily polished metal!

 

 

So, CAD, laser cutting and CNC machines have to be the way to go, and will enable more people to create accurate work without a workshop, but not necessarily doing all the actual metal cutting themselves. No sense really holding on to marking things out with blue dye and a surface plate. Kids and young adults are simply not going to bother with that, or taking the time and care to learn to do it accurately enough.

The key to MEW will be to embrace new technology but not to lose the old skills and accuracy, just repurpose those abilities.

Believing ‘kids and young adults’ aren’t going to bother with acquiring skills and accuracy is a mistake.  The yoof engage in bunch of high-tech hobbies that often require conventional support, and they get skills as need be.

Old ways can be encumbrance. The way I was taught Technical Drawing didn’t set me up for CAD, and many of my generation have struggled to grip 3D modelling for that reason:  I have an embedded 2D mindset that had to be unlearned painfully.

I wonder how many of today’s Model Engineers went through the leisurely intensive training of an apprenticeship.   Not me, I had to teach my extremely ignorant self workshop skills as a retirement present.

I agree 3D printing is good thing for the hobby though, especially if you can work metal as well!

Dave

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Dave for my part I have to agree couldn’t get on with CAD so threw the towel in got other things to do with the time. Maybe it’s down to age I’ve worked all my life with 2D and managed to get by

H

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

Not exactly what I said, SoD; I said they [the next generation] wouldn’t bother with blue dye and marking things out on a surface plate, (i.e. the old fashioned way).

I think they are much more likely to engage with new technology, using CnC devices and lasers etc. to cut their metal accurately for them, rather than spending years learning how to cut or file accurately freehand, for example.

Any magazine wanting to keep a hobby alive will have to move with the times. Doing things the old way is not necessarily relevant to today’s generation, but the overall aim and the things that are made probably will be – just made with new technology and new methods.

Something like Church bellringing, a hobby of mine, has not changed all that much from the way it was done 300 years ago, but having said that, we now use modern pre-stretched polyester bell ropes which are much less springy; Foundries can tune bells very accurately on giant lathes, instead of ‘chip tuning’ them with hammer and cold chisel; The bells themselves have modern ball bearings in place of plain ones, and computer simulators are used to practise methods, while cameras are used to show the bells rotating in the belfry while they are being rung.

Church clocks are wound up by electric motors and timers rather than the bell ringers having to laboriously do it by hand every Sunday !

And there are Apps and computer programmes available to practise new bell methods and improve your bell striking. So even this old art is being updated with modern tech. but the basic aim – to ring bells in a long series of changing places from memory – is still what we do.

There are contributors on this forum who say they are too old for new tech, but perhaps they just need an easy to follow course on CAD and CNC etc – a bit like those computer and tablet classes you see advertised for people of the previous generation.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

I was fortunate to have had a mechanical marine apprenticeship from 1974 to 1979  but I would hardly call it…and I quote from Dave in his comment above.

“….leisurely intensive training of an apprenticeship”

It was hardly leisurely! Although it was intensive, it was hard work, low pay and living in digs sometimes with 2 other lads, early starts and late finishes, coupled with day release and evening classes to 9pm once a week.

Queue the Monty Python sketch “the four Yorkshiremen” !….oh but we had it tough etc etc….

Regards to all

Derek

[John Doe 2]

On John Doe 2 Said:

Not exactly what I said, SoD; I said they [the next generation] wouldn’t bother with blue dye and marking things out on a surface plate, (i.e. the old fashioned way).

I think they are much more likely to engage with new technology, using CnC devices and lasers etc. to cut their metal accurately for them, rather than spending years learning how to cut or file accurately freehand, for example.

Any magazine wanting to keep a hobby alive will have to move with the times. Doing things the old way is not necessarily relevant to today’s generation, but the overall aim and the things that are made probably will be – just made with new technology and new methods.

Something like Church bellringing, a hobby of mine, has not changed all that much from the way it was done 300 years ago, but having said that, we now use modern pre-stretched polyester bell ropes which are much less springy; Foundries can tune bells very accurately on giant lathes, instead of ‘chip tuning’ them with hammer and cold chisel; The bells themselves have modern ball bearings in place of plain ones, and computer simulators are used to practise methods, while cameras are used to show the bells rotating in the belfry while they are being rung.

Church clocks are wound up by electric motors and timers rather than the bell ringers having to laboriously do it by hand every Sunday !

And there are Apps and computer programmes available to practise new bell methods and improve your bell striking. So even this old art is being updated with modern tech. but the basic aim – to ring bells in a long series of changing places from memory – is still what we do.

There are contributors on this forum who say they are too old for new tech, but perhaps they just need an easy to follow course on CAD and CNC etc – a bit like those computer and tablet classes you see advertised for people of the previous generation.

John it’s not that I do not want to learn new skill i do not see how CAD would benefit me, before I finished  work and in my late 50’s I learnt to programme 6 Axes robots ! Younger people starting out in this hobby dont have cash for CNC lathes etc.

Derek remember well those days at Tech 9-5 6.30-9 all on same day

H

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

We sem to have twi viewpoints which are in opposition.

The old hands complain that articles are too simple (On the lines of “I don’t need to be shown how to tap or ream a hole”)

The the complaint is that there aren’t enough newcomers to the hobby.

If we don’t advise and tutor newcomers, they will lose anyn interest that they have, because no helpful aricles are available to them.

We can’t have it both ways.

The experienced want articles which will extend their knowledge of the newer processes, such as CAD or 3D printing. (They want articles that increase their knowledge)

Strangely, so do the newcomers, in exactly the same way, but possibly to know that a Tap needs to be lubricated, and with what, or how to knurl a workpoece, and which is better, Diamond or straight.

There is a need for both, for all of us are on a learning curve, but on different parts of it!

Once, we all had to learn, something, and still do.

So we need a mix of what the experienced see as too simple, (For the less experienced beginner) and the more advanced techniques for those who are exoerienced machinists and want to try something new.

When I bought my first lathe the thoughgt that one day I would screw cut threads (Taps and Dies were something to learn, or relearn) let alone gears; never ocurred to me.

Let us all remember that Model Engineering covers a wide variety of disciplines.

Not all of us are pattern makers, or foundry men.  Be grateful that some are.

Locomotives, steam, battery electric, internal combustion engined, Road Engines, Clocks, Boats, Tools, Machine restoration or modification, etc.

There is room for all of us, given some toleration.

Those who cancel will not know what they have denied themselves, and endanger those are prepared to read, or ignore, what ever they choose.

Howard  (Proof reader and typist vacancy!)

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

+1 on what Howard says – I learned (and I’m still learning) about 80% of my so-called engineering skills by reading books and magazines. There’s room for both – a beginner’s series and more advanced projects.

Rob

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Well I seldom mark out these days. Most work is done on the manual mill buy edge finding and then the DRO takes care of the rest so I guess JD2 is right. The CNC is much the same, locate the work and press go.

Funny enough I have just started building an engine with the intension of writing it up for ME as a first casting kit for beginners. I’ve not gone into marking out but did take a photo indicating what edges to use the edge finder on to establish the datum. My new set of metric drawings were done by probing the casting rather than conventional measurement and that should sort out all the errors in the old 2D imperial drawings that it is currently being sold with.

A small 3040 CNC can be had for about a third the price of a Minimill or Minilathe so certainly affordable. Or you could say one can be had for the same price as a far eastern rotary table and will index whatever number you want and blend curves into one another far easier than on a rotary table.

Many coming into the hobby now will have been using CAD since school as it is the modern Tech Drawing so will not know what to do with a tee and set square but CAD will be second nature to them. As will working with decimals not fractions of a Bananna.

I’ve redrawn that whole engine in 3D and been able to confirm by simulating all the parts moving the conrod does not hit the end of the trunk guide and that the piston does not hit both cylinder end covers which the original suffered from. Why should anyone coming into the hobby have to work with 2D drawings that had all these faults in them just because that was acceptable in the good old days?

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

I tend to still mark out the “old fashioned” way, I don’t have DRO (yet – maybe a retirement present to me!).

Why do I mark out the old way? Well it depends on what I am making and how accurate it needs to be, also probably more use assist in making a part using hand tools such as files (remember them?). In addition if I need to machine the component it gives me a confidence check from my edge finder to where the cutter is supposed to be.

I might have accidentally given one of the dials an extra twirl by mistake if I get distracted for example, no DRO……almost convinced it’s time to treat myself and my Emco FB2!

I can certainly see the advantage of 3D drawings over 2D and CAD, and Jason is right the younger generation will be more familiar with this than I am. 3D is also useful for checking errors in a 2D drawing if you have the software, time and ability to convert these drawings though… Personally I am not really prepared to put the time in to learn CAD and 3D, I prefer to be in my workshop than sitting at a PC. Did enough of that when I was working!

But it depends on what you want to make in the workshop and your level of practical skill. You can make a lovely 3D drawing but do you have the skill to make the thing?

Model Engineering has gone through many transitions over the years and to attract more people into what can be a very rewarding lifelong interest (though potentially expensive initially), our hobby has to change with the times or it will wither and die.

Regards to all

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Young people don’t buy magazines. Not much point in tailoring a magazine about a predominantly older guys’ hobby (viz the crowd at any ME show or club) to cater for younger people. They will look on Instagram or TikTok but will not spend money to buy a magazine.

Of course there are some of the older crowd who are interested in CAD, computer modeling, laser cutting etc, but my guess is most of us are still traditional nuts-and-bolts kind of dinosaurs who prefer getting our hands dirty over programming a computer. The kind of guys interested in steam engines and the like tend to be like that.

I spent the morning out in the shed today, marking out parts for a Stirling engined fan project with marking blue, scriber block, steel rule and dividers. Hacksawed the bits to shape then finished off on the belt sander, then drilled and reamed the holes in them using the vertical slide on the lathe to get the spacing just right, but the mark out helps me make sure I have everything in the right position as a double check.

Sure, a lot of young people might prefer to do it the “modern” way by doing it all in a mini mill with DRO. But is this then becoming a rich man’s hobby, where a beginner needs to fork out for a lathe and a milling machine before he can get started?  The old lo-tech ways are the cheap ways and most young people are impecunious, so may well appeal to them. Plenty seem to be interested in knifemaking using  charcoal fires and old time blacksmithing methods. Low-tech and low cost.

Ironically, it is the older guys who have reached the retirement pot of gold at the end of the working-life rainbow who can afford the hi-tech equipment to do things the modern way.

[Hopper]

On Hopper Said:

Young people don’t buy magazines. Not much point in tailoring a magazine about a predominantly older guys’ hobby (viz the crowd at any ME show or club) to cater for younger people. They will look on Instagram or TikTok but will not spend money to buy a magazine.

Of course there are some of the older crowd who are interested in CAD, computer modeling, laser cutting etc, but my guess is most of us are still traditional nuts-and-bolts kind of dinosaurs who prefer getting our hands dirty over programming a computer. The kind of guys interested in steam engines and the like tend to be like that.

I spent the morning out in the shed today, marking out parts for a Stirling engined fan project with marking blue, scriber block, steel rule and dividers. Hacksawed the bits to shape then finished off on the belt sander, then drilled and reamed the holes in them using the vertical slide on the lathe to get the spacing just right, but the mark out helps me make sure I have everything in the right position as a double check.

Sure, a lot of young people might prefer to do it the “modern” way by doing it all in a mini mill with DRO. But is this then becoming a rich man’s hobby, where a beginner needs to fork out for a lathe and a milling machine before he can get started?  The old lo-tech ways are the cheap ways and most young people are impecunious, so may well appeal to them. Plenty seem to be interested in knifemaking using  charcoal fires and old time blacksmithing methods. Low-tech and low cost.

Ironically, it is the older guys who have reached the retirement pot of gold at the end of the working-life rainbow who can afford the hi-tech equipment to do things the modern way.

Well put

H

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

 

I wonder how many of today’s Model Engineers went through the leisurely intensive training of an apprenticeship.   …

None. There was no such thing as a leisurely apprenticeship.

As low man (boy) on the totem pole, apprentices did all the hard, dirty, unpleasant, boring and difficult jobs nobody else wanted to do. And they were given no slack.

I remember being right boll*cked by the foreman for being only halfway across the toolroom floor en route to my work bench when the siren went for the end of tea break. I should have been at my bench when the siren went, I was very forcefully reminded. s

And welders who flicked the glowing hot rod end down the front of your overalls onto bare skin if you were in the least slow in having the next rod ready for them or chipping the slag off the just finished weld.

All for $22 a week when a tradesman got $140. And Mum charged me $10 a week board!

Four Yorkshiremen had it easy I tell you…

But, yes it was intensive training, including one day a week at tech college for “book learning” and advanced machining practicals. Plus garnering handed-down trade skills on the job from our seniors, some of whom had learned their skills from old boys who had been apprentices in the 19th Century when steam engines still ruled the roost.

A lot of those old boys were characters much like Sparey and GH Thomas who had pursued further studies at what used to be called The Institute of Technology, achieving a level of qualification on par with an engineering degree, but of course grease monkeys in those days could not be seen with a degree, so it was called a diploma.

And like Sparey and GHT et al, many of them had hobbies where they made model engineering projects or restored veteran vehicles by making most of the darn things from scratch and were absolute wizard craftsmen. They could do everything from carve a motorcycle connecting rod from a block of tool steel (purloined from work of course) to hand-beat a petrol tank from flat sheet and weld it up without a leak.

So the things we were privileged to learn from them on the job were much more than the handed-down “old wives tales” as they are sometimes pooh-poohed by some of today’s graduates of YouTube University.

But in retrospect I think the most important thing I learned was the exquisite torture of the first year in the apprentice training centre, more than half of which was spent filing blocks of 1″ thick black steel plate down to flat and square all over within one thou, then hacksawing it to shape to further file into a G clamp or whatever, all within a thou on all surfaces. Months and months of standing at a bench with a 10″ flat file in hand, filing, filing, filing. Broken up only by occasional micrometer measuring and looking for daylight under a steel rule. All day long — except for the luxury of an old black and white training film for an hour after lunch on such things as using a file, or a tap etc. All in the heat of the Australian summer, with no air conditioning. Manual labour in 120 degrees F was considered normal. And we were allowed to use the Coke vending machine as often as we could afford on our $22 a week.

It taught a 16-year-old many valuable lessons that have stuck for life. Patience. Perseverance. Precision. Served me well in a second career totally unrelated to engineering. Bit like boot camp in the military I suspect.

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

So these people in their late 50 or early 60 who have the money that Hopper mentions will likely have been brought up with the metric sytem. They will likely have been taught how to use computers at school and no doubt used them during their working life. And they probably still like a magazine over social media even if it is a digital mag.

These people are more likely to be the “beginners” or newcommers to the hobby as we tend to know it. They will possibly just have done some basic metalwork at school but forgotten it. Many like me may not even have an engineering background. It is these sorts that the mag needs to aim at as they are likely to be a higher percentage than those in their late teens or early 20s

They would rather go out and buy a piece of tooling than make it, they prefer to machine as much as possible rather than use hand tools even if it means having to buy more tooling, they won’t read books when they can get half a dozen different ways to do a job from the web.

Some of the suppliers are moving with the times, you can get CNC machined parts, laser or water jet cut parts, items that may once have been castings or pressings are now part machined on CNC for you the builder to finish. New castings coming onto the market are starting to be 3D designed, CNC or 3D patterns, decent sets of CAD drawings. So times are changing for those that want it whether you like it or not. But if you are happy working with drawings full of errors, poor castings and the same 70yr old designs then just turn over those pages to content that you like.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

I feel that whilst the ” modern way” may well be computer based, be it at school or industry the tech will have cost more than a beginner could afford and to start with basic methods will need to be used. So a scriber and ruler will be needed, followed by a drill, possibly hand held, with some bits, then a cheap second hand lathe, no DRO. A set of calipers, and a Micrometer, a bench and vice, hacksaw, file. ALL these simple tools one needs to know how to use, so CAD, 3D, 2D none of this cuts metal ! A detailed set of CAD drawings are of little use unless you have at least a DRO equipped lathe and mill if not full CNC. A 3D printer is not per se the answer to a pattern maker dream, and I have seen 3D printed items melt on a hot day. I’m not a Luddite but I have to use what I have or what I can afford. Old and new methods of doing the job need to be taught !  I started with a small vice on a plank, a 3/8″BSF die and a die stock. Why 3/8BSF ? Well that’s another story ! Noel.

[noel shelley]

On noel shelley Said:

A detailed set of CAD drawings are of little use unless you have at least a DRO equipped lathe and mill if not full CNC.

Oh I’ll have to get a DRO fitted to my lathe and 2nd mill then.

I really can’t see why you can’t use a set of CAD produced 2D drawings with manual machines. You simply turn the hand wheel to the dimensions on the drawing which with luck will be decimal rather than fractions. What is different about a dimension on an old drawing that was hand written 1/8 to one that is printed 1/8, 0.125 or 3.175 on a CAD drawing?

I don’t see anyone building tooling from the likes of Hemmingway, Engineers Emporium or all those that built say the Firefly IC engine saying they had to fit DROs or go CNC simply to be able to make such things.

 

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

So these people in their late 50 or early 60 who have the money that Hopper mentions will likely have been brought up with the metric sytem. They will likely have been taught how to use computers at school and no doubt used them during their working life. And they probably still like a magazine over social media even if it is a digital mag.

These people are more likely to be the “beginners” or newcommers to the hobby as we tend to know it. They will possibly just have done some basic metalwork at school but forgotten it. Many like me may not even have an engineering background. It is these sorts that the mag needs to aim at as they are likely to be a higher percentage than those in their late teens or early 20s

They would rather go out and buy a piece of tooling than make it, they prefer to machine as much as possible rather than use hand tools even if it means having to buy more tooling, they won’t read books when they can get half a dozen different ways to do a job from the web.

Some of the suppliers are moving with the times, you can get CNC machined parts, laser or water jet cut parts, items that may once have been castings or pressings are now part machined on CNC for you the builder to finish. New castings coming onto the market are starting to be 3D designed, CNC or 3D patterns, decent sets of CAD drawings. So times are changing for those that want it whether you like it or not. But if you are happy working with drawings full of errors, poor castings and the same 70yr old designs then just turn over those pages to content that you like.

I agree with all that, except for one small point – I suggest that Jason’s age range is about ten years too high. It certainly applies to me, and I’m 54.

 

One thing that nobody has mentioned in this thread, and it very rarely occurs in similar ones, is that there are at least two approaches for this work: people who want a hobby, and will spend time/money/effort learning how to do it in the traditional way like the steam enthusiasts; and others for whom it’s just a step on the way to something else, mechanics, restorers etc.

The first will happily divert their efforts from the big project into making tooling and the second will just buy the boring head(or whatever) so the required part can be made in an efficient way and put into use immediately. Both are equally valid. No prizes for guessing which I did!

Surely one of the reasons for the apprenticeship route of developing skills was so that your employer could learn fairly early on just how well suited you were to boring, tiring, dirty, repetitive hand work whilst ensuring that you had the foundations for whatever their business required. It’s difficult to see the value of a hobbyist spending a year’s worth of evenings in his shed filing an accurate cube when most of the actual work will be done with a mill, belt-sander and welder(for example).

 

I don’t see the cost argument either; it’s not as if the revered Myford lathe was a spur of the moment, pocket money purchase for most people, so spending the current equivalent sum on a modern machine better suited to the purchaser’s requirements is the sensible, practical, efficient thing to do. Isn’t that what a competent engineer is expected to do? Even the budget entry has changed; it’s a basic 3020 CNC router coupled with a 3D printer operating off software and principles that are taught in school. Those are well suited to the drone/robot/carbon fibre thingy that are the modern equivalent of model steam. Maker is a far better term than model engineer for someone who creates weird stuff in their spare time.

 

Magazines or digital media? Unfortunately, most of what hobby/craft magazines and club newsletters cover is far better suited to websites/blogs for projects and information, with video for the training articles. A well edited 1minute video will show the basics of how to use a hand tool far better than a multi page article even with well-chosen photos amongst the text. That’s even with the improvement that affordable desk top publishing made(well over twenty years ago!) to laboriously photocopied, typewritten pages with poorly reproduced black and white photos.

Jason is definitely right about the ready availability of modern processes; there’s no way I’d make loco frames by hand, when having them laser cut saves hours of tedious work that’s really easy to spoil. There are plenty of other parts that will benefit from that effort. That’s without some of the advantages that CAD and CNC methods provide for free, like slot and tab construction in flat parts that reduce or even eliminate the need for complex assembly methods. Just slot it all together, check dimensions and add clamps so you can tack it together with the £150 TIG welder you bought from a supermarket…. Such things have opened up possible projects for me that I wouldn’t have considered a while ago. I recently found the artwork Dad did for club merchandise over forty years ago, that was done by hand on a grid probably 20 twenty times the size of the key rings it was intended for. It took him about a fortnight of evenings, and delivery of the boxes of parts was weeks after ordering. Whereas the logo for a club we started was created on a computer, given to a supplier at a show on a memory stick, and five minutes later we had embroidered samples to chose from. The same image was used for stickers that were done by the end of business, and projected on a wall to draw round for a painted flag.

 

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

A young person will simply not have the money, nor the workshop to populate with classic big machine tools. They are buying their first house, paying their mortgages and raising a family, so cannot afford, or justify a traditional workshop or traditional big machine tools. And they probably don’t have a garage or garden – certainly not one big enough. They are unlikely to want to learn to use marking out solution and hand tools if they can use DROs etc. I think it is more likely that they will want to use small affordable CNC machines, along the lines of home 3D printers. Or design parts in CAD on their home computers and send the files off to a company to cut them.

Look at your average modern joiner; they use portable machine mitre saws and machine routers etc, and laser levels to lay out and cut accurately and quickly, rather than laboriously chiselling or hand cutting and then planing to get a good result.

On youtube there are hundreds of folk who make amazing things, such as wind turbines or electric bikes from scratch, using bought in circuits, and printed or laser cut parts. Their creativity is incredible.

And on the other side are older folk like those into classic or sports cars but who could not afford them when they were young. They finally manage to buy them in their late 60’s. Owning a decent lathe and workshop is a similar thing.

 

[noel shelley]

On noel shelley Said:

…so CAD, 3D, 2D none of this cuts metal ! A detailed set of CAD drawings are of little use unless you have at least a DRO equipped lathe and mill if not full CNC.

Not at all!  2D-CAD is far more productive than Drawing Board methods, basically because everything can be edited, and libraries of common items are available.   What 2D-CAD puts on the printed page is much the same as a Drawing Board, but the output is produced faster.

Above a certain level of complexity, 3D-CAD is markedly more productive than 2D-CAD, and it can generate 2D views.   My metalworking tools are manual, so I work the old-fashioned way from conventional plans.  However, I save a lot of time by creating those plans with CAD software.  My mill has the most basic possible DRO, and the lathe works off the dials.  Nothing fancy about it.

 

A 3D printer is not per se the answer to a pattern maker dream, and I have seen 3D printed items melt on a hot day…

3D-hobby printers spitting aren’t the best technology available.  They are junior members of the class of ‘Additive Machine Tools’.   Industrial additive tools print with many different materials, from concrete to molten metal, producing objects like this, which are difficult to make with subtractive methods:

Nothing wrong with a hobbyist choosing not to embrace 3D-CAD, but 3D CAD is essential if be wishes to use Additive methods.   It’s not necessary to buy any expensive equipment: instead a 3D-model is downloaded over the net to a printing service, money paid, and then the finished item is delivered.   No marking-out or metal bashing at home.   It’s different.

I’m all in favour of making traditional models in traditional ways, but it’s important to understand that industry and young people have moved on.   Mechanical engineering is shifting away from hands-on making towards design,  making it less valuable to learn skills like filing.

Assuming Climate Catastrophe doesn’t break the world’s economy, I’d expect Model Engineering to gradually modernise, with classic lathes and imperial slowly fading, whilst much more use is made of 3D-CAD, online manufacturing services, and AI.  I don’t see manual lathes and milling machines in my type of workshop being wiped out by CNC, because I make so many one-offs, and quite enjoy ye-olde methods, whilst  CNC shines at repetition work and special shapes,  which I don’t do much.    But hobby CNC will grow, because it’s a good answer to many of the more advanced making problems.

Sadly I don’t think the hobby will ever benefit from the large scale dumping of good condition machines caused by industry moving forward again.   Manual machines were/are sold cheap because CNC made them uneconomic.  Unfortunately, industrial CNC machines are unlikely to appear at hobby affordable second-hand prices.  Most of them are amazing expensive, too big for a home workshop, consume tens of thousands of kilowatts, and tend to be worked until Beyond Economic Repair, at which point they’re scrap due to the cost of spares (if any!)

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Why assume that newcomers to the hobby are young, that 50-60 bracket (if a bit high) is just as likely where they will be coming from. Kids will have finished school and uni so they won’t have to find the fees. May even have some room as the garden won’t be needed for that trampoline or goal posts and the garage won’t be taken up with a pile of kids bikes etc

Setting up with a lathe and mill is not expensive when compared to other hobbies, anyone bought a half decent bike or set of golf clubs lately? And at least you don’t have to upgrade them every year when the latest model comes out.

[John Doe 2]

On John Doe 2 Said:

 

On youtube there are hundreds of folk who make amazing things, such as wind turbines or electric bikes from scratch, using bought in circuits, and printed or laser cut parts. Their creativity is incredible.

That last point cannot be emphasized enough, and I wish I’d written it.

John mentioned bell-ringing earlier as another pass time that has a very traditional outlook, but can be easily helped by things that are now ubiquitous. We have a simulator on eight of our bells, and the £700 was quickly recouped by bringing several learners along far quicker than having them annoy several thousand people for entire evenings. A basic camera in the belfry is now so quick and easy to install and beats a spoken description of what’s happening on the other end of the rope. A quick video of them ringing is also very useful for improving handling quirks, which isn’t easy even they can’t see what they’re doing.

[Author]

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