For discussing the merits of alternative 3D CAD programs.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Seems Atom is quite a cut down version compared to the more expensive Pro and Expert versions. There seems to be a hell of a lot of features missing. Take a look – there's a comparison table here. And a pricing table here.

Have to admit I'm a bit biased, having used quite a few CAD systems now and having settled for Fusion. But bear in mind that if you invest 6 months of your time in this product you are going to have to cough up to continue using it and retain access to any work you do with it. That's £200, £940 or £1540 to pay for the CAD plus £300 or so per year for the optional maintenance (aka bug fixes) and £475 for the CAM if you decide to get into that.

With Fusion you the equivalent of the top end Alibre product or better, plus simultaneous mulitiaxis (professional) CAM, FEA etc etc – for free. You could buy yourself a half decent machine with the money you save….

Murray

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 27/10/2018 15:53:03

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

But Murray there must be something putting people off as they have had the chance to use F360 for a couple of years now but plenty seemed keen to try Alibre from the responce in the previous thread. Maybe it's the cloud thing or the fear that they may invest even more time in F360 and then they change their terms and start charging, possibly just too many bells and whistles when something less daunting may be more first time user friendly, who knows.

Edited By JasonB on 27/10/2018 13:29:04

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 27/10/2018 15:53:09

[Rod AshtonParticipant @rodashton53132]

Muzzer – Further to your post. Take a look at FreeCAD. Lots of tube videos and the omissions above are mostly present and of course it is free.

**LINK**

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 27/10/2018 15:53:14

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

I'm with Muzzer on this and can't understand the Alibre euphoria. It seems their offer is becoming more common as the CNCCookbook site are also offering Alibre for 6 months free and then 15% discount on the basic package. It looks like an aggressive marketing campaign on the part of the Alibre management to try to win back some market share ?

I am also concerned that there is perhaps some misunderstanding. Are people maybe thinking that by designing in a 3D CAD package they will then be able to press a button and magically get a finished product ? It is what it is, just a drawing package. To get product from it you need either a 3D printer or a CNC device. To get your design into these devices you will then need an intermediate package(s) to slice the 3D model or produce the GCode CAM. These both represent a further learning curve on yet another software package – a package or packages that may also cost you further subscription funding.

Fusion does the CAD, 3D CAM / CNC CAM in the one package and is free. What's not to like ?

There are some further thoughts here.

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 27/10/2018 15:53:19

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Rod Ashton on 27/10/2018 14:03:28:

Muzzer – Further to your post. Take a look at FreeCAD. Lots of tube videos and the omissions above are mostly present and of course it is free.

**LINK**

I tried that. It was as buggy as hell, kept crashing and was missing some major features. Whilst I applaud open source, self-funded programs, up against F360 there is simply no comparison. Probably not surprising, given that F360 is being developed by a fully funded team of professional software engineers with a major corporation behind them. You wouldn't find many professional users betting their businesses on FreeCAD, unlike F360.

Murray

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 27/10/2018 15:53:25

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by JasonB on 27/10/2018 13:16:40:

But Murray there must be something putting people off as they have had the chance to use F360 for a couple of years now but plenty seemed keen to try Alibre from the responce in the previous thread. Maybe it's the cloud thing or the fear that they may invest even more time in F360 and then they change their terms and start charging, possibly just too many bells and whistles when something less daunting may be more first time user friendly, who knows.

Edited By JasonB on 27/10/2018 13:29:04

Well, I guess if Neil had chosen to give F360 a free promotion, there might have been a similar take up. Of course, as F360 is free anyway, the concept of "promotion" has a different complexion. With Atom, it's effectively a delayed payment (or option not to buy if you don't get on with it) but it's still a significant purchase by another name.

I believe Autodesk's repeated promises not to charge for hobby use but if it ever happened I suspect it would be some years in the future, at which point there is likely to be a reasonable choice of good quality / good value CAD and CAM – and many of us will be in the armchair / workshop in the sky. by then. In the meantime I won't be looking the Fusion gift horse in the mouth. It's a pretty darned amazing product and when you get into CAM, there are very few products that come close in terms of features and price – or total lack of price in this case.

I wasn't planning on saving my bank details on the Fusion / A360 cloud and I'm struggling to think any of us would have anything to be worried about keeping our own funny little designs there.

Murray

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 27/10/2018 15:53:30

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

This thread established so the Alibre Atom3D thread can concentrate on helping people use the software, rather than being swamped by people who want to promote their personal preferences.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Muzzer on 27/10/2018 13:08:38:

Murray

Murray, if you want to discuss F360, can you do it in another thread.

>I believe Autodesk's repeated promises not to charge for hobby use

I think you have rose tinted goggles on. Here's a verbatim comment from Brian Repp, Autodesk's 'Community Manager':

"While I can't necessarily make any promises that Fusion 360 will indefinitely have a free tier, or who meets the guidelines for a free tier (current entitlements here), please know that we are extremely committed to serving the enthusiasts, hobbyists, startups and smaller businesses."

forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusion-360-design-validate/is-fusion-360-free-indefinitely-if-your-a-hobbyist/td-p/6280628

I've been caught out by having useful free 3D printing software discontinued by Autodesk.

Neil

 

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 27/10/2018 16:09:42

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

There are also users like me who use their CAD package for work as well as their Hobby, when I originally bought Alibre PE which was then their equivalent to Atom it was a good price and I was not paying for all the stuff I did not need. Whats the cost of a basic Autodesk commercial product?

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

Should Fusion begin to charge for the full spec package (CAD,CAM etc), according to the same press release by Brian Repp, it would cost ~GBP438 inc VAT for a single cloud based seat at current F/X.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

I like to go with reasonably priced, one-man-band software, instead of the bloated, overpriced stuff. I usually find it to be easier to use than open source too.

My CAD is by Moment of Inspiration (MoI) and is much, much easier for me get my head around compared to the likes of Fusion 360 or other similar software. Almost everyone that tries it likes it.

For CAM, I use CamBam and ECam. Between the two, I can knock out efficient gcode that needs no alterations for both my mill and lathe.

Anyone contemplating getting into 3d CAD should be aware that if you intend to cut your models on a CNC machine, then you'll more than likely be using 2d profile curves in the CAM system – so be sure you can easily export DXF file from your chosen CAD software.

 

 

Martin.

Edited By blowlamp on 27/10/2018 16:26:45

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

And there was me answering David Jupp's question about features.

You're sailing close to the wind here, Neil! You appear to be actively promoting a commercial product yet closing down objective discussion.

Murray

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Muzzer on 27/10/2018 15:20:43:

Posted by Rod Ashton on 27/10/2018 14:03:28:

Muzzer – Further to your post. Take a look at FreeCAD. Lots of tube videos and the omissions above are mostly present and of course it is free.

**LINK**

I tried that. It was as buggy as hell, kept crashing and was missing some major features. …

Try it again, recent versions are much more stable.

Pros: Free, not cloud based, no licensing issues or commercial uncertainties. It has a number of other workbenches (like architectural drawing) not supported by Fusion.

Cons: Still in development with major features slow to appear. The Mechanical CAD workbench is limited to single parts – assemblies and joints are not available – and the drawing tools are basic making modelling certain objects awkward.

Bottom line for home workshop: good for modelling single parts but gets clumsy as complexity rises. Easier to use than Fusion but much less capable. Up to a point I prefer it to Fusion, but Fusion does much, much more. Good choice if you have simple requirements and don't trust big business. Not a good choice for advanced users in a hurry.

Dave

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

Neil,

What's the point of starting a thread called '' For discussing the merits of alternative 3D CAD programs.'' if people are then discouraged from doing just that?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Muzzer on 27/10/2018 16:53:40:

And there was me answering David Jupp's question about features.

You're sailing close to the wind here, Neil! You appear to be actively promoting a commercial product yet closing down objective discussion.

Murray

Murray,

Use common sense.This is a commercial website. We are a business.

The product I am primarily promoting is the magazine Model Engineers' Workshop; the only gain I have made from Alibre is a complimentary copy – because I wanted to be 100% sure the software was suitable for reader's needs before proceeding.

I am also promoting Alibre Atom3D, firstly because that is the package that accompanies out tutorial series but I would not be promoting the product if I thought it was a 'lemon'. My enthusiasm for it is genuine and it's greatly increased my productivity. I have done things I would have previously done in TurboCAD deluxe much more quickly, and done a few things I have no idea how to do in TCD after some four or five years of using it.

I'm also using Atom3D – the same as readers are getting, not a full version so i can judge its limits as well as its capabilities. The one limit I found a constraint is to be added to the functionality at the next update.

The arrangement came about as a result of my asking a reader to enquire about the possibility of a link up. This led to a mutual agreement between MEW and Alibre Design. I have been looking for a way to provide readers with a meaningful trial of a 3D CAD package accompanied by tutorial series for years. I have tried to get such an initiative off the ground twice before and it has not succeeded, but it remained a priority because of the interest of readers.

No money has changed hands between ourselves and Alibre. Their UK distributor wishes to advertise alongside the series which was in no wise a precondition to the arrangement.

The fees for the tutorial series are being donated to REMAP.

The fact I have moved this discussion and made space for it is clearly NOT closing it down.

That said, I am increasing beginning to consider that you are deliberately trying to disrupt and undermine an offer secured for readers in good faith.

You may not feel I have made the right choice of package to offer readers. I feel that it is an appropriate choice and that the cost of buying a copy at the end of the trial is reasonable for what you get and that the purchase outright with wholly optional add ons model is fair and transparent.

The fundamental difference between F360 and Alibre Atom3D is that fusion is solidly marketed with the dual aim of getting students and new recruits to big companies to ask for it and for growing companies to end up needing licences. This is how Autodesk grew AutoCAD. Their offer to hobbyists is and always will remain contingent on that business model sustaining itself.

Alibre, in contrast, genuinely want to develop a paid-for hobbyist user base as part of their business model. Yes they hope people who develop their business or skills to upgrade to more advanced versions, but their business model is not predicated on that. This means the hobbyist version can be, and is being, actively tuned to the needs of its users. It also means it can be sold as a stand alone install and forget package without all the implications of annual relicencing, verification etc. that go with a cloud based licence.

I should say I have nothing against Autodesk, although I struggled with the stability of Print Studio as bundled with the Dremel 3D printer I reviewed. They were helpful, but unable to solve my problems and now it is no longer supported. Ironically Print Studio has been removed from Fusion 360 and Autodesk now recommend you use Cura instead, although with some digging you can still download it as a standalone.

Neil

[Anonymous]

Posted by blowlamp on 27/10/2018 16:23:30:

Anyone contemplating getting into 3d CAD should be aware that if you intend to cut your models on a CNC machine, then you'll more than likely be using 2d profile curves in the CAM system – so be sure you can easily export DXF file from your chosen CAD software.

Even if I only use 2.5D commands in CAM I always import a solid model via an IGES file. Then you can do 2.5D on different levels, and choose the top or bottom of a feature as needed for a reference.

Andrew

[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 27/10/2018 18:31:34:

Ironically Print Studio has been removed from Fusion 360 and Autodesk now recommend you use Cura instead, although with some digging you can still download it as a standalone.

Neil

Yeah, they bought and stuffed NetFabb too!
NetFabb was a really slick product until Autodesk got their mitts on it.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Is anyone using Dolphin CAD/CAM? I know the late Sir John was keen on it for a while, but it doesn't seem to get many mentions since then.

As the moment, I still use a 15 year old copy of Visio for all my drawing. I was first introduced to it when the boss gave me a free copy they'd sent to him for evaluation in 1995 just after they released the product and well before they were bought out by Microsoft.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 27/10/2018 18:39:56:

Posted by blowlamp on 27/10/2018 16:23:30:

Anyone contemplating getting into 3d CAD should be aware that if you intend to cut your models on a CNC machine, then you'll more than likely be using 2d profile curves in the CAM system – so be sure you can easily export DXF file from your chosen CAD software.

Even if I only use 2.5D commands in CAM I always import a solid model via an IGES file. Then you can do 2.5D on different levels, and choose the top or bottom of a feature as needed for a reference.

Andrew

Maybe your CAM package is a bit more upmarket than mine, but it's fairly easy to extract edges & intersections from a model to get something similar from MoI and then export them as DXFs.

I must say though, I can't remember when I last needed to do a real 3d milling job, almost everything I get can be handled with profiles and pockets etc.

Martin.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Mark Rand on 27/10/2018 22:45:02:

Is anyone using Dolphin CAD/CAM? I know the late Sir John was keen on it for a while, but it doesn't seem to get many mentions since then.

As the moment, I still use a 15 year old copy of Visio for all my drawing. I was first introduced to it when the boss gave me a free copy they'd sent to him for evaluation in 1995 just after they released the product and well before they were bought out by Microsoft.

I've got version 11 but I haven't used it for a long while. It was just about the only affordable CAM package with lathe capabilities for quite some time, meanwhile others have caught up and overtaken it.

Martin.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I don't think John drew much in 3D as he got me to draw up stuff from his 2D drawings so he could print the items.

It is interesting the comments about 2D, 2.5D and 3D CAM, if I were to get a CNC then it would be for things that I can't do manually on the mill which is full 3D such as flywheels with nicely shaped spokes and engine cylinders that I want to look like castings that can't easily be fabricated.

I also don't see that you must have a 3D Printer or CNC machine to get an end product from 3D Cad. I use mine to design in and then print off 2D drawings that I can manually machine from or if I want some flat plate cut can e-mail off the file for laser or waterjet cutting or simply send a nice looking rendered perspective to a client who will be able to understand that rather than being presented a set of 2D black and white drawings.

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

I'm using DesignCad because I've used the 2D version for years. Now upgraded to 3D as a means of 'future proofing'.

I've tried Fusion 360 but gave up when I couldn't work out how to put a line of a given size into a specific area!,

The other advantage of continuing to use DesignCad is that all the drawings I've done over the last 25 years are still available without having to redraw them.

I've had a play at 3D and managed to draw a traction engine hind wheel so I will use 3D for my next model and take 2D drawings off for manufacture.

Brian

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