Food freezers in the workshop/garage/shed.

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

I want to buy a secondary freezer which will have to be located down in my cellar workshop.  Looking at the Currys website I was surprised to read that many of their offerings say “Do not use it in any unheated area”. Two questions:

• Can anyone explain why some freezers are OK to use in unheated areas and others not? I’ve tried internet searching and haven’t yet come up with anything convincing. One ‘explanation’ I found was that freezer thermostats somehow use the external ambient temperature as a reference, but I don’t buy that.
• Can anyone offer anecdotal experience of operating a freezer (not specifically designed for the purpose) in an unheated area? I suspect that it isn’t really a problem, but I don’t know in the absence of technical info – which seems hard to find.

The cellar is hovering at around +8 C at the moment, which is the coldest I’ve ever recorded – normally it fluctuates between +10 (winter) and +14 (summer) without any heating.

Robin.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Personally I’ve never had a problem.
Until I retired a few years ago, I’ve never lived in a centrally heated house, and my fridges and freezers have worked fine.
Previously my main freezer was at the top of the cellar steps, off a room which was often unheated.

Since we moved over to Buxton, the fridge & fridge/freezer live in the kitchen, but the 2nd freezer lives in the garage workshop.
I looked earlier this evening, and it was 0.3°C out there earlier.

By coincidence, Lidl were selling non-contact thermometers today for £7.50; they seem pretty good for the money too.
Our House & Garage freezers were both showing -10°C, so no real difference.
I think there might be an issue in colder climates, where maybe the surrounding temperature is well below zero, particularly if you wanted to use the fast freeze option.

This is a US article which sheds a bit of light on it; I should say though that our various fridges and freezers are probably well on to 30 years old, maybe more, so the technology might have changed a bit with the drive for low energy consumption appliances.

Bill

[Anonymous]

I would guess that the only concern is of the heat exchanger icing up in low ambient temperature. Pretty unlikely in a space within the house I should think, heated or not.

[Anonymous]

FWIW, this is what the instructions for my Frigidaire chest freezer say on the matter:

“For the most efficient operation, the appliance
should be located where surrounding
temperatures will not exceed 110°F (43°C).
Temperatures of 32°F (0°C) and below will
NOT affect operation. Additional compressor
heaters are not recommended.”

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Some fridge freezers used to  control the fridge temperature to make sure it didn’t get too cold and of course keeps below a set max temperature to keep food fresh.  The freezer bit though doesn’t have a direct control.  If the unit is in an ambient temperature below the fridge set point the cooling was never activated.

[James AlfordParticipant @jamesalford67616]

We had a standard chest freezer in an unheated pre-fab concrete garage and the condensation on the freezer was awful. The ground beneath would be damp with the drips.

James.

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

Is the problem to do with the refrigerant used? Can it get too cold for the heat transfer mechanism to work efficiently? If it condenses somewhere in the cycle that it shouldn’t?

We keep being told that air-source heat pumps are less efficient when you try to get too high a temperature out of them, so at first sight you might expect a refrigerator to be more efficient with lower ambient temperatures – it’s the same heat transfer mechanism.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Robin, most fridges, freezers and fridge/freezers are designed to work at the best energy saving, when in an ambient temperature between 16 to 32 C, but their lowest operating temperature is normally no lower than 10 C. To get to a lower temperature, I suspect you probably need a higher rated compressor and or a different refridgerent, which will probably push up the price of the unit you require. I had this problem when I first move into where I am now, and my fridge/freezer had to be put in an unheated room, but then came the first winter, where the temperature outside fell to about -13 C, and it stopped working, so I had to go out and get one that would work in unheated outside buildings, which would continue to work down to -15 C, and as you may guess, it cost a lot more than a fridge/freezer of the same size as those that would work in normal indoor room temperatures.

Regards Nick.

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

I had a wooden floor put in my cellar workshop – at the time I had a chest freezer the condensation from this wrecked the floor under the freezer – not noted for some time as was at rear of freezer.  The old style fridges dripped condensate onto the motor casing I guess to evaporate it – my fairly new fridge (in the kitchen) runs the condensate from the interior rear wall cooler into a plastic well surrounding the motor which seems to prevent it falling on the floor

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

UNLESS you have information to the contrary DO NOT put a  freezer in an unheated space The first issue is to do with switching the compressor, the stat ! I had to deal with 2 that failed in cold weather in garages. Nothing wrong with either of them except the fact somewhat ridiculously that it was tOO cold ! Combined fridge/ freezer are more prone to this due to their method of operation ! The second is less common but have seen it on several occasions, MICE ! They find the warm area around the commpressor appealing and can’t get out of that dammed silly habit of nibbling, in this case the live wires – this will drop the RCD, the carcass will decompose, only later to desicate ! One can now reset the RCD as the leakage is below 30Ma. It is best though  to remove the remains with the power off ! BEFORE dumping a failed unit it is worth checking this is NOT the problem ! Noel

PS the dropped RCD may go sometime un unnoticed before it is found and the contents spoiled !

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

We’ve had our freezer in an unheated space for over 5 years and never had a problem.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

MAY BE I should have pointed out that below 5 or 6c is when the trouble can start ! My tales of woe go back over 25 years, newer units with electronic stats etc may be OK ? Noel.

[Robin Graham]

On 18 January 2024 at 23:04 Robin Graham Said:

I want to buy a secondary freezer which will have to be located down in my cellar workshop.  Looking at the Currys website I was surprised to read that many of their offerings say “Do not use it in any unheated area”. Two questions:

• Can anyone explain why some freezers are OK to use in unheated areas and others not? I’ve tried internet searching and haven’t yet come up with anything convincing. One ‘explanation’ I found was that freezer thermostats somehow use the external ambient temperature as a reference, but I don’t buy that.
• Can anyone offer anecdotal experience of operating a freezer (not specifically designed for the purpose) in an unheated area? I suspect that it isn’t really a problem, but I don’t know in the absence of technical info – which seems hard to find.

The cellar is hovering at around +8 C at the moment, which is the coldest I’ve ever recorded – normally it fluctuates between +10 (winter) and +14 (summer) without any heating.

Robin.

I would assume that they got tired of units being returned as faulty when they were not. If it was not really a problem why would they be saying it?

The refrigerant has been changed from the previous ozone destroying version and it’s probably less effective.

 

[Jim NicParticipant @jimnic]

I had a Bosch upright freezer in my garage for several years and it would play up if the ambient temperature fell too low.  Initially not recognising the problem I had a couple of instances where it failed and the contents spoiled.  I eventually called in a Bosch engineer who faffed about with meters and thermometers for a while before advising me of the problem which he clearly knew about all along but was justifying his visit.  The problem was that the condenser would collect a coating of water which would drip away in normal temperatures but freeze if it was too cold.  Once a coating of ice had formed the process became self sustaining, the ice would build up and the condenser was unable to function. The answer was to replace the Bosch, which was designed for indoor use, with a Blomberg machine designed for use either indoors or in outside areas such as sheds and garages.  Problem has not recurred for 5 years.

Hope this helps.

Jim

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

This unfortunate issue would only occur during very cold weather and the guarantee run out ! May be global warming will help to solve this problem.

How many people realised that removing CFC propelants from aerosols resulted in it being replaced by the highly inflammable BUTANE ?   Noel.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Dave Halford, I bought my old fridge/freezer around 30 years ago, and it was still working fine when I moved to where I am now, so this was before the refrigerant was changed, and when the cold snap came and it stopped working, and having looked at the trouble shooter in the user manual, and read the minimum ambient was 10 C, it dawned on me that was the problem, and when the cold snap was over, it worked fine again, so I don’t think the change makes any difference. When I bought my new one, even then they were listed for either outbuildings or not, and that was from PC world/Curry’s

Regards Nick.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The compressor has to create a certain increase in pressure, ie the final pressure to liquify the gas once it has cooled minus the starting pressure. This is where the problem comes from. When rather cold the gas is at a much lower pressure, so the difference is greater. Add to this the thicker oil and things nowadays designed to only just work beyond the guarantee date and you get a starting problem, high currents and blown switch or motor windings.
Older fridges were made more robust so ‘mine has worked in Antarctica for 100 years’ is not relevant.
look carefully at the spec and you will find some with a lower minimum temp but still probably not down to freezing.

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

I’m missing something here…

• For a freezer, the gas at the compressor inlet is likely to be at about -18°C. If it isn’t, your food is going to become inedible rather rapidly, in the UK, temperatures below -18° C are incredibly rare.
• For the condenser to be covered in ice is not a problem under any conditions, the condenser will reject heat into ice better than it will reject heat into air.

I can believe that combined fridge freezers with only a single pump will fail to work correctly if the ambient temperature is lower than the fridge’s set point, also that a fridge with butane as the refrigerant will fail to work if the ambient temperature approaches 0°C, although in that case, the food will be well within the desired temperature range even if the fridge is turned off.

I do have a dehumidifier that will not work at low temperatures, and had a heat pump clothes dryer that had the same issue, but they are both relatively high temperature heat pumps, with different refrigerant requirements than freezers have.

Can anyone shed further light on this?

[Dave Halford]

Thanks for replies – interesting.  They have given me focus for some further research.

It seems that the new forum software allows multiple quotes in replies, so here goes:

 

On Dave Halford Said:

[…]

I would assume that they got tired of units being returned as faulty when they were not. If it was not really a problem why would they be saying it?

The refrigerant has been changed from the previous ozone destroying version and it’s probably less effective.

 

You are a more trusting soul than I am! I think they might  be saying it to persuade me to spend more money than I need to.  Currys say that certain freezers are unsuitable for use in an unheated area. The ones that they explicitly endorse are from Beko’s https://www.beko.co.uk/lifestyle/freezer-guard Freezer Guard range. Beko actually say “Did you know that when some freezers or fridge-freezers are used in an environment below 0°C it can cause them to stop functioning? ”  No mention of ‘unheated areas’. I suspect there may be some of marketing-speak going on with Currys, To give them credit, Beko are clearer – they give numbers.

On Mark Rand Said:

I’m missing something here…

• For a freezer, the gas at the compressor inlet is likely to be at about -18°C. If it isn’t, your food is going to become inedible rather rapidly, in the UK, temperatures below -18° C are incredibly rare.
• For the condenser to be covered in ice is not a problem under any conditions, the condenser will reject heat into ice better than it will reject heat into air.

I can believe that combined fridge freezers with only a single pump will fail to work correctly if the ambient temperature is lower than the fridge’s set point, also that a fridge with butane as the refrigerant will fail to work if the ambient temperature approaches 0°C, although in that case, the food will be well within the desired temperature range even if the fridge is turned off.

I do have a dehumidifier that will not work at low temperatures, and had a heat pump clothes dryer that had the same issue, but they are both relatively high temperature heat pumps, with different refrigerant requirements than freezers have.

Can anyone shed further light on this?

This is pretty much where my thinking is. The problem with combined fridge/freezers is pretty obviously to do with the thermostat being located in the fridge compartment, so if that gets cold enough the compressor will never switch on.

After Noel’s  revelation that the most common refrigerant for freezers is butane  (actually isobutane, or R-660a as they call it, just to obfuscate clarify things) I’m leaning towards the idea that the refrigerant is the crucial thing. But I too would welcome any further light.

Thanks again for replies, Robin.

[martin haysomParticipant @martinhaysom48469]

mine lives in the shed ,no problem

parents have kept one in theres for 25 years no problem

might be a problem in theory, but they work

 

[Werner SchleidtParticipant @wernerschleidt45161]

I see the main problem in the cold start behaviour of the compressor. In air heat pumps for house heating there is installed a  low heating for the oil in the compressor. If the oil is too cold there is no lubrication of the compressor possible. The question is where is the critical point after long standing still of the compressor motor and have then a cold start. And freezers in a house have normally not so a low temperature and so they have no oil heating necessary.

 

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

I was surprised to see that freezers shouldn’t be used in unheated rooms.  Our upright freezer is in our “cellier” which is unheated and I often leave the window open at night to keep it cool.  No problems so far and the compressor seems to run less often when it is cold which must mean less energy consumption.

However, I have just looked out the user guide that came with it about five years ago and that gives the ambient operating temperature as 16 to 38 C!  I must reconsider how cold I keep it.

Russell

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

Freezers and fridges are rated to work within a given ambient temperature range, which has been exceeded for some of us here in the UK recently.  Manufacturers produce different versions of some of their models to suit the country of use, based on the normal temperature variations.  In the past when looking at freezers I note that Beko had some that were recommended for use in an unheated environment.  Obviously you can use any version in any environment but the energy usage and overall efficiency of the unit will be a compromise against using a more suitable unit.

[Mark Rand]

On Mark Rand Said:

…

• For the condenser to be covered in ice is not a problem under any conditions, the condenser will reject heat into ice better than it will reject heat into air.

…

A mistake I think.  Ice is a fairly good insulator and bad things will happen if the radiator can’t get rid of the excess heat.  The  compressor would work much harder, perhaps over-heating the motor.

Another issue might be that the chiller emits a measured dose of refrigerant into the evaporator, the size of which is related to temperature, pressure and the refrigerant type.  This is done to maximise efficiency.  Possibly the dose is wrong when the pressure side gets too hot due an iced up radiator, or pumping extra cold gas doesn’t quite deliver enough pressure.  Either would tend to overwork the compressor, and domestic freezers are only fitted with motors designed to work hard in short bursts.

I’m not sure anecdotal evidence is worth much.  To find out what works and what doesn’t, we need to know:

• The temperature of the unheated space
• The type of refrigerant the chiller is filled with
• How the refrigerant doses are controlled, nozzle, valve etc
• The motor rating, and how long it runs when ambient temperature is too low

I guess the risk of trouble rises as the temperature drops below the makers recommendation, and for how long it stays below.  Much depends on individual circumstances – a flimsy south facing wooden shed in Cornwall is probably low risk, whilst the same north facing in a Scottish frost-trap is asking for it.

As most of the UK rarely gets very hot or very cold my guess is that many ordinary freezers are performing well enough in unheated rooms.  I have one, bought second-hand, that’s been in an unheated utility room for at least 25 years.  Low risk because the temperature rarely falls below 10C.  (Worried about frost, I measured 8C on Wednesday evening when it was -4C outside.)

This stuff is rarely black and white – you need a large sample and all the data.  The result of running a freezer in a cold garage is shortened life rather than instant obvious failure.  Maybe it fails after 10 years when it would have lasted 15 indoors, and that doesn’t matter.

Dave

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

On Mark Rand Said:

…

• For the condenser to be covered in ice is not a problem under any conditions, the condenser will reject heat into ice better than it will reject heat into air.

…

A mistake I think.  Ice is a fairly good insulator and bad things will happen if the radiator can’t get rid of the excess heat.  The  compressor would work much harder, perhaps over-heating the motor.

I’m not sure I follow your reasoning here Dave. If the whole apparatus is operating at a sub-zero temperature, so the ice jacket acts purely as a solid insulator between the radiator and the environment, I can see it. But if the radiator temperature rises above zero C the latent heat of melting of the surrounding ice will surely be a pretty efficient heat dump? That’s how I read Mark’s post.

“This stuff is rarely black and white – you need a large sample and all the data.  The result of running a freezer in a cold garage is shortened life rather than instant obvious failure.  Maybe it fails after 10 years when it would have lasted 15 indoors, and that doesn’t matter.

Dave”

I agree there. Probably I’ll go for a ‘Freezer Guard Technology’ thing from Beko (guaranteed to work down to -15C external temperature) because it’s not much more money.  It wasn’t so much saving money that motivated this thread anyway – more a desire to understand  what’s going on.

From the Beko website Q&A:

“But surely a cold environment is better for my freezer?

You would think so – but in fact, there are external parts of a freezer which normally need to be kept above a minimum temperature. These include your freezer’s compressor, which can stop working at low temperatures – ironically you might say – and may result in the appliance breaking down.”

So maybe it’s to do with oil  viscosity or summat, as I think someone suggested upthread. I wish they would be more explicit about the technology though!

Robin.

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