Flintlock pistol plans

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Posted by Jon Lawes on 17/06/2021 22:10:37:

Is it classed as an antique weapon if it was only made recently?

My hand made wheelock pistol was made 250 years go your honour

[RobinParticipant @robin]

I have an unlicensed, antique blunderbuss collection. The police swarm over me occasionally but they have yet to cart me away…

Touch wood

[BufferParticipant @buffer]

Robin that blunderbuss is lovely.

I asked the local firearms coppers if I could have a black powder licence for blank firing and they said why not just buy pyrodex with your shotgun ticket so that's what I now do.

I agree with Michael Gilligan. I get really fed up when people start making comments about making any sort of gun model.

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Here are two photo's of my Wheelock, I need to get in the loft to bring down the gun and take a complete photo showing the entire length and also the back of the stock with incomplete inlay.. If this was an original Wheelock from this period it would be worth £20.000+

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks, Vic

Lovely work

MichaelG.

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

I've been up in the loft, here is the guns full length, just about 3 feet as was the original I copied, also the back of the gun which is sadly unfinished, perhaps I should resume doing it as I still have a pile of old bone handled cutlery that I originally used.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

The USA has more gun stuff than we will ever have, rights and freedoms of the individual, personal responsibility etc

So for gun stuff the usa sites are where people do it seriously, black powder guns etc

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Also a close up of the lock, You can see what I made to look like my initials VN this is the end of the main spring support which passes through the lock plate. Other interior support parts also pass through the plate into a square hole and are then hammered to expand before being filed off flat, also visible is the letter 'V' stamped.

The original locks would be made from iron and not mild steel as I used, this has a different appearance

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Buffer on 18/06/2021 08:02:42:

Robin that blunderbuss is lovely.

I asked the local firearms coppers if I could have a black powder licence for blank firing and they said why not just buy pyrodex with your shotgun ticket so that's what I now do.

I agree with Michael Gilligan. I get really fed up when people start making comments about making any sort of gun model.

Sorry about that, but rightly or wrongly it can be a contentious subject, so you can expect diversity of opinion however clearly the lawmakers may've thought they framed the rules.

When I was a target shooter of modern and antique firearms I never suffered from any misinterpretation of my intentions – honest or malicious – but the risk was always present, and obvious from media coverage of any firearms incident.

So for a model engineering supplier, unless they have a personal interest of their own in firearms of any period and are happy to deal with that risk, it makes every kind of sense simply to avoid that field and concentrate on making their living in uncontroversial subject areas.

On the subject of black powder substitutes, I found Hodgdon's 777 to produce less aggressive fouling than Pyrodex, in .577" Snider at any rate. But I don't know how easily either would go off in a flintlock.

Beautiful wheellock BTW, Vic!

Edited By Mick B1 on 18/06/2021 10:11:19

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Vic, definitely finish it and don't put it back in the loft. It looks really good.

Brian

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

The last place that should be is in the loft Vic, this has given me the inspiration to have a go at making one, but it will not be as good as yours..

Bob

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Posted by BOB BLACKSHAW on 18/06/2021 10:33:42:

The last place that should be is in the loft Vic, this has given me the inspiration to have a go at making one, but it will not be as good as yours..

Bob

—————————————————————————

Great to hear you will have a go at making a wheelock Bob, if you need any advice then PM me. back in 1981 when I first started making it I had only a little 1960's Unimat SL lathe, I made the spindle that the wheel locates on but everything else was by hand.

The metal I used for the barrel I got by chance from a blacksmiths in the 1970's, it was 1" pipe with half inch bore so I had 1/4" to taper down to 1/16" at the muzzle with files, bloody hard work as I remember, Now I'd use my Holbrook lathe although there is ornamentation at the breech and muzzle end and half way along also.

Metal for springs, I got a piece of leaf spring from a car scrap yard, heated it up to remove the temper so I could saw it up easily,

[BufferParticipant @buffer]

Mick that wasn't a dig at you. I know you like your cannons as much as I do.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Jon Lawes on 17/06/2021 22:10:37:

Is it classed as an antique weapon if it was only made recently?

Absolutely not!

'11. To be regarded as an antique, a firearm must have been manufactured before the date specified in regulation 4 of the Antique Regulations, which is 1 September 1939 (see also section 58(2D) of the 1968 Act).' (From the regulation dated 11 March 2021).' Note this recent change tightens the definition such that some items previously classified as antiques are now firearms and have to be licensed.

I advise reading all of the rules, not just the ones that seem to allowing making firearms. Simply put, it's almost always illegal in the UK to knock up anything that can fire a projectile. There are exceptions but the legislation is extremely complex.

That said, our legal system isn't completely daft because the courts can consider circumstances and motives. A chap profiting by selling 'replica' automatic pistols to criminals where the only thing stopping them firing real cartridges is a short section of easily drilled mild-steel is likely to go to gaol. It matters how easy it is to make a replica function for real. Much less likely to be bother with the law if the replica is too weakly made to be fired safely and has a long rod of extra-hard steel blocking the barrel!

It's a pity because gunsmithing involves many interesting techniques, and although I'm against private ownership because of the high risk and high impact of nutters and criminals misusing them, guns are attractive for much the same reasons as Steam Engines, Clocks and other fine mechanisms. It's unfortunate when the actions of the irresponsible few spoil it for everyone else but that's life.

Miniatures are the only way I can think of making a fully functioning gun legally in a UK home workshop. Hard to argue it's a firearm if the model is too small to fire the smallest bullets, and even if ammunition could be specially made for it, the muzzle energy was too low for it to be used as a weapon. Otherwise the builder has to ensure what he's making isn't a firearm, risking successful prosecution if the disarming features don't satisfy a court. It's a minefield.

Speaking of mines, is it illegal to make them? How about caltrops? I suggest there's plenty of fun to be had out of model engineering without getting into anything remotely dodgy. Don't go there!

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Mick B1 on 18/06/2021 10:04:56:

Posted by Buffer on 18/06/2021 08:02:42:

[…]

I agree with Michael Gilligan. I get really fed up when people start making comments about making any sort of gun model.

Sorry about that, but rightly or wrongly it can be a contentious subject, so you can expect diversity of opinion however clearly the lawmakers may've thought they framed the rules.

[…]

.

Just to be clear, Mick

What perturbed me was the remark by ‘Gaunless’

[quote] Very, very dodgy ground. I wonder what the Police would say to plans for firearms being posted here? Even if a barrel is not drilled, it's only a few engineering operations from being able to be fired. [/quote]

… especially the second sentence !

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I’m not suggesting that anyone tries this for real … but it’s an interesting ‘thought experiment’

How effective a ‘nail bomb’ could you contrive, powered by an innocent-looking Steam Boiler ?

… it’s only a few engineering operations from …

MichaelG.

.

Let’s just leave the paranoia aside … either make non-functioning models of antique firearms, or get the appropriate licence.

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

I think the mention of criminals using antique weapons applies to early revolvers etc, I can't imagine anyone trying to rob a bank with the unreliability a flintlock pistol

The biggest problem of all is easy access to explosives in the form of fireworks, at one time they only appeared around November, now there are firework shops everywhere so anyone over 18 can go and buy some big display tubes full of gunpowder

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

The three pistols I made would not even fire a cap, the internal hammer spring is from a clothes peg, the barrel is screwed to the body and is only bored out 25mm. It all works but has no power from the trigger, they are just a working copy of a original pistol. I got the idea to make them as I had to make a spring for the original pistol which was broken, it looked quite a easy task to make a working copy.

Driving a car has more potential to harm, just seems strange that it seems acceptable by the general public seeing a driver on the mobile phone or on medication and not report this to the police. If I hold my hand made pistol out of my surroundings I could be shot on the spot

Bob

Edited By BOB BLACKSHAW on 18/06/2021 13:34:37

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/06/2021 11:59:39:

I’m not suggesting that anyone tries this for real … but it’s an interesting ‘thought experiment’

How effective a ‘nail bomb’ could you contrive, powered by an innocent-looking Steam Boiler ?

… it’s only a few engineering operations from …

MichaelG.

Some time ago I considered a storyline for a novel about disgruntled pensioners getting together to cause economic mayhem and terrorism and came up with a number of zero technical methods to do so, let alone the home manufacture of gunpowder and strong alkalis (and some more gruesome methods) – even as simple as scattering pyramidal nail twists from a motorway bridge. You can't stop everything but you can reduce the obvious.

pgk

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

They look really good Bob,

how did you make the hammers? I used a combination of forging, sawing and filing to make mine, all my threads are Whitworth which replicates the coarse threads they used.

here is my box of failed springs from my early days of lock making, mostly caused by following instructions in old books on how to temper springs

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Posted by Robin on 17/06/2021 23:00:49:

I have an unlicensed, antique blunderbuss collection. The police swarm over me occasionally but they have yet to cart me away…

Touch wood

———————————————————————————-

I notice your blunderbuss also has a spring bayonet so you are in double trouble

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by vic newey on 18/06/2021 12:06:00:

I think the mention of criminals using antique weapons applies to early revolvers etc, I can't imagine anyone trying to rob a bank with the unreliability a flintlock pistol

The biggest problem of all is easy access to explosives in the form of fireworks, at one time they only appeared around November, now there are firework shops everywhere so anyone over 18 can go and buy some big display tubes full of gunpowder

This was one big case (I'm sure other news outets have it too this was a random one)
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/21/antique-gun-dealer-jailed-supplying-gangsters-paul-edmunds

Also

https://theconversation.com/criminals-are-using-antique-weapons-due-to-a-loophole-in-uk-law-102666

Robert G8RPI.

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Just as I thought Robert, it's all old cartridge guns being misused by criminals rather than muzzle loaders, I expect many a skilled machinist could make the ammunition as well.

 

I note one of your links leads to a page headed with a flintlock pistol so that's typical of  giving the wrong impression of what is actually happening

Edited By vic newey on 18/06/2021 14:34:15

[BufferParticipant @buffer]

When I was a kid I used a scaffold pipe with a flattened end and accidentally put a pendant light fitting through my dads coldframe. All powered by a bird scaring banger. Strangely my dad didn't seem to mind that much, I think he was quite amused by it all.

[Anonymous]

Just tried an interesting experiment: I went through this thread and used "Ignore Member" on all the armchair-lawyers, holier-than-thou, and just plain control-freaks.

I'm actually left with quite a decent, self-consistent and interesting thread in just over two pages.

(… and yes, please use "Ignore Member" on me if such is your wont. No need for a nyah-nyah.)

[Author]

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