Flintlock pistol plans

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

Hello, I've finished three small pistols, copies of a original antique gun, they work quite well on the mechanism but the measurements taken was hit and miss so I am pleased how they come out.

I would like to have a go at a flintlock pistol but looking on line I can't find any plans, any help where I can obtain a drawing please.

The pistols I've made will not fire as the barrel has not been bored through so are safe and for display only. I've given the pistols to my father, he has a few originals hanging on the wall, a flintlock would be a nice addition.

Thanks Bob

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

You could try these people:-

**LINK**

… though they seem to advertise kits of castings and materials rather than plans as such.

I've found it difficult to get plans or drawings for 19thC muzzle-loading cannon as well. There are plenty of GAs, but detail can usually only be got by scaling from these, if at all.

You can understand model engineering supply companies being unwilling to dance in this legal minefield.

[Clive BParticipant @cliveb55652]

Bob,

If you're lucky you might find an affordable copy of this book:-

"How to build your own flintlock rifle or pistol" by Georg Lauber, 1976, It contains detailed, dimensioned drawings.

Never tried to make one, but looks like it would be an ambitious project I would say. Usual legal caveats etc.

Clive

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember12892]

[This posting has been removed]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I haven’t yet found the Flintlock, but … grab this whilst you can : **LINK**

https://strzelecka.net/obrazki/Wheellock_Plans.pdf

MichaelG.

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Edit: __ See also : http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/breechml/breechml.html

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 17/06/2021 12:46:47

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

Thanks for the replies, the Wheelock looks interesting, I mite have a go at this if no other plans for a Flintlock are available.

The book is a bit pricey for me, the decimal place is on the wrong side.

Thanks Bob

[GaunlessParticipant @gaunless]

Very, very dodgy ground. I wonder what the Police would say to plans for firearms being posted here? Even if a barrel is not drilled, it's only a few engineering operations from being able to be fired.

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Michael

Had a look at the drawings in the wheellock article you linked and the dimensions looked a little clumsy, 3 decimal places. Did a quick metric conversion of several of these measurements and they have all turned out to be extremely close to sensible metric dimensions. It looks as if this was originally drawn in metric and then converted to imperial for the article.

That said it looks interesting so thanks for that.

Martin W

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Looks like it has been optimised for the intended market, Martin

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It might not be appreciated if one applied for this offer though !

MichaelG.

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P.S. __ However unlikely the dimensions might appear … the closing paragraph on p1 is worthy of note:

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 17/06/2021 16:24:34

[Anonymous]

Posted by Gaunless on 17/06/2021 13:56:13:

Very, very dodgy ground. I wonder what the Police would say to plans for firearms being posted here? Even if a barrel is not drilled, it's only a few engineering operations from being able to be fired.

Not so, the Violent Crime Reduction Act which covers realistic imitation firearms does not apply to antique guns which are all that are being discussed.

"modern firearm” means any firearm other than one the appearance of which would tend to identify it as having a design and mechanism of a sort first dating from before the year 1870."

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember12892]

[This posting has been removed]

[Oily RagParticipant @oilyrag]

Michael:-

"However unlikely the dimensions might appear … the closing paragraph on p1 is worthy of note:"

Even the best guns are made by 'hand fitting' methods to this day. I have a Beretta SO5 over and under 12 bore which has the 'barrel head block' hand scraped into the receiver. They do this by 'candle blacking' of the components and then 'scraping in' to get a perfect fit. It closes and opens with a muted 'clunk / click' that just oozes quality craftsmanship. 40 years old and still as tight as the day it was new!

Martin

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Oily Rag on 17/06/2021 16:53:35:

Michael:-

"However unlikely the dimensions might appear … the closing paragraph on p1 is worthy of note:"

Even the best guns are made by 'hand fitting' methods to this day. […]

.

Yes, I do realise that, Martin

… My use of ‘unlikely’ was specifically relating to the “three decimal places and no tolerance” dimensioning on the drawings.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Just found some interesting comments, here: **LINK**

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/georg-lauber-s-flint-lock.99737/

MichaelG.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

You don't actually need a licence for a functioning muzzle loader of "antique" design. There are exceptions around size and disguised weapons but generally they are OK. There are regulations around balck powder but mostly health and safety based. Of course carrying anything that could be used a weapon in a plublic place is a whole different matter and could get you arrested.

Robert G8RPI.

[Peter SpinkParticipant @peterspink21088]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 17/06/2021 18:47:56:

You don't actually need a licence for a functioning muzzle loader of "antique" design.

I think you'll find you do – any functioning muzzle loader be it of modern design or a modern 'antique' lookalike would be a section 1 firearm.

If it were a genuine antique (like a pair of duelling pistols)  it would be exempt from licensing – the definition of 'antique' is open to interpretation but think of pre 1850 ish.

Firearms law in the UK is a complete can of worms.

Edited By Peter Spink on 17/06/2021 20:23:50

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

It goes like this;

…..The malignant busy-body across the road hears that you are making a flintlock in your shed so she takes pleasure in dropping in to the local police station to ask if it really is legal for you to do this. The plod think it all sounds ok, except,..they have not heard of anyone else making a flintlock in their shed and they need to cover their backs, so they tell their firearms officer to take a look……

The firearms man visits you and your shed and thinks it all looks and sounds ok,..except, he has not heard of anyone else making a flintlock and there is a chance that you are making it to shoot the malignant busy-body. So, he makes notes and snaps pix on his phone of any parts you have made and, needing to cover his back, hands it all to someone higher up.

The higher up plod think it all looks harmless, except, they have not heard of anyone else making a flintlock in the shed and, needing to cover their backs, they ring up the Home Office to check……

The HO immediately looks in it's file for any similar event which has been 'tested in law'. if they don't find anything applicable they pass the matter on to the Assoc.of Chief Police Officers, who refer the matter to their Firearms and Explosives Sub Com…..Who will send more experienced and intelligent plod back to look more closely at your shed and everything in it!……….Now is the time to lose that old copy of Mein Kampf that you use for a door stop!

….If you think that this could not possibly be the train of events then I refer you to just one case,..that of Alan Westlake and his 'Westlake Engineering'…….take a look at his website on google and go to 'history' to see his exchange of missives with the HO.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

^^^ Like I said: you wanna dance in the minefield?

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

It seems I am out of date. This guidance

https://www.gardencourtchambers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_v13.pdf

Indicates that to have a functioning muzzle loader you now have to have either a section 2 shotgun certificate (some may be section one so need a FAC ) or be a member for a shooting club for that type of muzzle-loader.

I should hava also pointed out that there are now lots of restrictions on realistic replicas of modern weapons.It is actually easier to justify having a real, functional pre-1939 automatic pistol chambered for a obsolete cartridge "I'm starting a collection" than a relastic replica of the same weapon where the only common reasonable excuses are "I'm a film / TV maker" or "I'm a paid-up member of a historic re-enactment society" The laws and guidance on enforcement are constantly changing.

This "Little machine shop" http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254951944246? and https://youtu.be/Q6wKME4Ma8k
is making "Alarms" but drilling through a longer cap instead of two cross drillings makes it something else completely. Having a through drilled one can get you locked up. Another law oddity is the 0.290" shotgun primers it uses do not need a certificate or permit but a small pistol primer does. This is because while it has far less energy content the pistol primer could be used to re-load a fired case.

The courts make the final decision, unless armed police shoot you first.

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

I made a Wheelock holster pistol back in the 1980's, it's a fully working replica of a Nuremberg holster pistol, every part was laboriously made by hand. The stock is inlaid with bone as on the original I copied, I never quite finished the inlay on the back of the stock unfortunately. The lock stock & barrel have now aged and look very authentic, I took just the lock to an arms fair to see if any of the dealers could spot it's not original and non could. I had even made a makers stamp incorporating my initials and hammered it in to the lock plate.

It has been fired using gunpowder from fireworks and just tissue paper for the bullet so you get a bit of a bang, also numerous times with just priming powder to show the mechanism working.

Wheelocks didn't use a flint, it wore away the wheel to quickly so they used iron pyrites which is softer but liable to crumble.

There are 7 springs in total for various parts, on the front of the lock are the dog spring and the sear lock safety spring, inside is the main spring, the pan return spring and two springs on the sear mechanism. You wind it up it with a 3/4 turn and then the sear drops into a hole on the back of the wheel. This is called 'spanning the lock' and is where the word 'spanner' almost certainly originated.

Just like early pocket watches the interior of these gun locks were ornamented even though the owner would rarely if ever see inside. I had to carve & file some fancy scrolls on the the exterior springs and inside mainspring, after all that work the first attempt broke when it was first compressed. I still have a pile of broken spring parts, until I learned how to temper the steel correctly. Normally a bright blue is good for your average spring but for a powerful leaf spring I discovered the need to go beyond that to a grey colour and then drop it into a pot of old engine oil.

If you need any advice Bob then message me, I can get the gun out of the loft and post some photo's up

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

According to this dated 2021 then 2. Under section 58(2) of the Firearms Act 1968, antique firearms which are sold, transferred, purchased, acquired or possessed as a curiosity or ornament are exempt from most of the controls in the 1968 Act, including the need for certification and being able to trade in them without being registered with the police as a firearm dealer.

**LINK**

You have to take into account that anyone can fix an old piece of gas pipe to a piece of wood, block one end up and drill a touch hole, pour in gunpowder, readily available just about everywhere from firework shops, devise the means to ignite it, i.e. 1.5v battery & fine wire wool it and there you have a deadly weapon.

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

Is it classed as an antique weapon if it was only made recently?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by vic newey on 17/06/2021 21:37:24:

[…] and there you have a deadly weapon.

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Quite so

… and in the right [wrong] hands a common ball-point pen can be a deadly weapon.

There is really no end to it.

If the Police happen to pay me a visit because I have posted a couple of links, then I will make an effort to advise the forum … until then, Flintlock and Wheellock mechanisms are items of engineering interest.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Jon Lawes on 17/06/2021 22:10:37:

Is it classed as an antique weapon if it was only made recently?

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The text on p57 of Robert’s excellent link is helpful

https://www.gardencourtchambers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_v13.pdf

Noting particularly 8.11

MichaelG.

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Edited By Michael Gilligan on 17/06/2021 22:40:24

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