Fitting Ikea Kitchen Units – Me workshop wall is on the way.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

The metal parts for the ceiling worked out at £76. I bought 1000 wafer head self drill self tappers from toolstation for £11. Cheaper than the supplier and look to be the same. This is a lot cheaper than timber. If I needed to put in a partition I think I would look in the same direction. Hopefully metal is straight and it seems ordinary dry wall screws can be used.

I'm just about to fix the first piece of plaster board to the far side of the problem stick out wall. It will be more or less hard down on the brick on one side and needs spacing out by about 1/4" on the other side. It just goes up to a little over worktop height as the rest can be blended in. I'm not sure how far the adhesive can hold a board off the wall or how thick to mix it. I wonder about using screwed in hammer fixing directly into the brick with a cut down lath to provide the spacing. Anyone ever used these? They could be recessed, I have loads of 40mm x 6mm ones for the ceiling metal work. When finished the end of the board will be over 6"x2" treated timber.

John

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[Bob RodgersonParticipant @bobrodgerson97362]

John,

i have had trouble with old plasterwork breaking away from the wall it's supposed to be stuck to. My current house was built in 1946 and the finish of woodwork and plasterwork were pretty poor but I suppose building supplies, like everything else, were in short supply just after the war so it's hardly surprising that the roughing plaster used contained lots of sand and very small pebbles/coarse grit that probably didn't help.

I came up with a good way of stabilising the walls prior to tackling anything like chasing out cracks and making minor blemishes good before emulsion painting.

First of all tap all round the wall to hear where it was loose and get a good idea of the areas. Then drill some 1/2" holes through the plaster to the brick (do this carefully so you don't loose any more plaster). Space the holes about 6" apart.

Next mix up a runny slurry of plaster with a good concentration of PVA glue mixed in the mix water. Using a mechanics syringe (fitted with a tapered nozzle that would fit in the holes in the wall and a rubber washer on the outside of the taper) starting from the lowest point push the nozzle into the hole until the rubber washer seats against the wall and inject the plaster into the wall. Be careful because you can easily pump the plaster off the wall, however I found that where it is really bad there is little resistance and the plaster finds it's way behind the stuff that is coming off the wall.

Don't be tempted to do too much at one session, on a wall 4m X 3m with about 50% of the plaster showing signs of coming away I did it in three stages allowing the injected plaster time to harden between sessions. The holes that are left are easy to fill and smooth over once everything has set and cracks can be chased out with confidence.

If you tap the wall again you will hear that the old plaster is firmly stuck to the wall again. There will be small areas that are not fully bonded to the wall but they are not likely to cause any problems.

I have still got one more wall to do and I will probably start this next week.

I experimented first with polyester resin which worked but was very messy and smelly, I just hope I have no reason to try and get the plaster in those areas off again in the future.

Bob

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You can go 25-30mm thick with board adhesive, mix to consistancy of whipped cream – so it will hold a peak but is not too firm that you can't tap the board back plumb. For your thin 1/4" gap you may want it a little runnier.

If you did want to just screw it then plugs and screws give a better feel as a hammer fixing is likely to be driven too hard and tear the top paper so won't hold the PB as well.

Worth getting one of these bits to drive the DWSs as it will set them just below the surface without breaking the paper when fixing to the metal studs

 

J

Edited By JasonB on 18/11/2016 15:43:55

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Thanks Bob. I don't have that problem. I decided to leave part of the wall that was removed in place because at some point there will be a pretty heavy water heat store over it or a tank. The joists are up to it anyway but a little more help wont hurt. This also leaves a place where I may have a new boiler installed.

The problem is work that has been done on the house which was built in 1911. The wall I have part removed has been added probably very early on. A lady moved in some time in the early 60's I suspect and had some walls skimmed – there doesn't seem to have been any need. The old plaster didn't come off easily. On one side the skimming is a mess. Some one made a corner kitchen cabinet and more or less plastered it in and plastered inside between the shelves. We are going to fit a 2.4m tall cabinet up against the wall so if left as in I would have to cut a filler strip to match the wall. Unless it was rather wide the deviations would be obvious so I decided to remove some of the plaster and replace with board. It's not hard to do. While I was "at it" I thought I may as well do the lower section of the opposite side. It's where the sink will be.

I suspect I am going to give the hammer fixings a go rather than trying to stick the board on. Obviously I will screw them in and use a bit of adhesive. The wall has already been gone over with water proof PVA. I'll put some of the ordinary stuff in the adhesive.

I did have a problem similar to yours. Around 15 years ago we had some on in to combine a loo and a bathroom as we have more than one loo. Looking at it after they had finished I noticed something odd about some of the plaster and found that the had skimmed over wall paper. It was an exterior wall. I chiselled the lot of. Fixed good quality treated roofing laths to the wall with raw plugs and then sheeted over with heavy plasterboard. I did the jointing myself, feather edged board and wickes pre mixed jointing compound. Again easy to do as the joints are only a few inches wide. I then noticed that they had installed a partition wall with 2" to 3" of run out top to bottom. I planed up some timber strips to account for the run out and fitted them horizontally. Then re plaster boarded it straight over the stuff that was there. The really annoying aspect was that there had been a partition wall there and I have no idea why they removed it. Done while I was at work.

We have a couple of cracks in plaster near the front of the house but no others I am aware of. Some plaster board near a door in the kitchen – probably done by the MEB when the place was rewired.

If you fancy trying to replaster patches aren't too bad providing they are smaller than a plasterers 4' derby. The initial thick layer doesn't need to be neat. I did some of this when I removed a fireplace – wider than the derby so I struggled. Doing it in smaller sections would have been easier. Maybe a suitable thickness of lath wrapped in cling film etc. Getting the mix right is essential as well. Work in progress for me.

John

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[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You will get better suction if you don't PVA the walls, just brush them down to remove any dust. Also no need to add PVA to teh board adhesive, it is sticky enough stuff as it is.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I know the CLS is planed, but it's a cheaper, better product than the PSE because it's used in vastly larger quantities and it has to be up to building regs requirements which means no knots or shakes.

Neil

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

Interesting reading. Two things : –

I once got a telling off from a local long time builder who saw me doing wall related renovating without a face mask. He told me that 60s era and earlier plaster suppliers often used asbestos as a bulking compound in their plaster mix. I have used a mask ever since.

The house had one or two wall cracks that no matter how often I filled them and painted over they came back. I solved the problem by hammering short sections of 1.6mm or 0.8mm printed circuit board edge ways on into the cracks at regular intervals. This stopped the differential movement between the two sides of the crack and since then they have never reappeared. Used this many times since with similar positive results. Any pcb manufacturer or electronic sub contract assembler will have scrap that they will give you for a cash contribution to their biscuit fund. PCB has countless other uses but that's another story.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

My plaster story is about age 16, waking up in bed with a jolt, the ceiling plaster had dropped off covering me from feet to chest!

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 18/11/2016 18:09:53:

I know the CLS is planed, but it's a cheaper, better product than the PSE because it's used in vastly larger quantities and it has to be up to building regs requirements which means no knots or shakes.

Neil

The most common C16 grade which B&Q "CLS" is can have quite a few knots and other allowable faultsas the grading is not for looks but structural strength so as long as it passes through the grading machine OK it will get stamped C16 knots and all.

Technically it is regularised not planned and is usually cheaper as it is cut from fast growig whitewood which is fine for structural use but not something you would want to plane and then decorate as the finish would not be as good as a slower grown redwood that has been planed. Decent softwoods are graded for looks in different grades – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5ths and shorts, unsorted. B&Q PSE does not even come upto the quality of unsorteds though they do have small amounts of better quality planned timber that is around 5 times the price of the PSE.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by JasonB on 18/11/2016 18:49:50:

B&Q PSE does not even come upto the quality of unsorteds though they do have small amounts of better quality planned timber that is around 5 times the price of the PSE.

I've often thought it resembles wooden olivers…

Neil

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I've seen no signs of damp on the wall that was removed. Some of it hadn't been redecorated for over 25 years but now it's down I can see that the usual courses of blue brick are missing so I've lightly coated it with 5:1 pva. The water proof type.

I was going to screw the hammer fixings in Jason not drive them in. They are only hammer fixings because of the size. The screw in types were way too long for what I need. Thanks for the advice on the mix. Sounds the same as plaster. I might get it right. I think I did last time I did some plastering.

When I did the bathroom I didn't have any problems with the paper tearing when the screws went in. I used trumpet heads. There were 2 problems. Getting the torque setting on the drill right – not to bad. Phillips's heads another matter. When I bought the screws the guys in the yard laughed and said a box comes with 2 bits and offered me more. I soon found out why. This time I have bought a pack of 10 from Toolstation. If only we could get JIS bits. They drive JIS wonderfully and are much better on Phillips. They are the same but JIS has less cam out.

I'll try glue and a strip of wood to set the spacing. Plus I suspect a couple of hammer fixing where the results wont be seen just out of curiosity. The outer edge will be dry wall screws into the 6"x2" which runs right up to the ceiling. I can get a good straight vertical edge on the other ride with that.

John

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[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Thats the whole idea of those screwdriver bits I linked to you do not have to worry about the torque setting on your cordless, they make it work like a proper drywall driver that disengages the bit from the screw when at just the right depth. So just leave it on drill setting and whack em in.

Its not so much the quantity of the screwdriver bits as the quality, one decent ones will far outlast a pack of cheap ones. Wera are not too bad

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

The timber I bought is wickes c16 treated cls. It has knots but none that can cause problems. I tried to figure out a way to do it with roofing laths. The good ones that roofers use are decent lengths of timber. They don't want to find knots when they nail a tile in place.

Frankly I am not impressed with any of the timber in the DIY places. Ash can be found pretty easily with far better quality. It's used for all sorts of things but too expensive for house building where the cheapest possible materials tend to be used.

(Yes I have been using a dust mask )

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 18/11/2016 20:25:37

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I'll buy a Wera one and compare it with the 10 in a plastic bag for 99p. They are made of chrome vanadium and seem to fit well which should help.

The diamond dust Wera are £2.40 a piece.

Personally i feel when they stopped using hardened tool steel for screwdrivers and switched to air hardening steels they should have used a different type of socket.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 18/11/2016 22:53:14

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I spent some time umming and arring how to fix the first piece of plaster true and went for my original intention to use hammer fixings but screw rather than drive them in. The board needed to be in contact with the wall at one side and spaced out by 1/4" on the other. Messed one up by countersinking too deep to recess the heads and another because I part hammered it in. The screw wouldn't take to drive it all the way in. A light tap to keep them in place and hold the plaster board back was ok.

The countersinking has torn the paper a bit but I think a razor blade scraper will sort that out but they will be hidden anyway when the units are in place.

All this for a 3×2' piece of board but I've had other things to sort out.

It's allowed me to align the heavy piece of timber to true up the end of what's left of the wall. I currently have one 5" hammer fixing holding that true while some mortar sets. Then it gets another 2. These wont screw in at all and have to be hammered.

I'll try gluing the rest of this side of the wall and as I am well aware of what can happen when plaster is first added to brick – it just falls off unless well wetted I'm going to put the adhesive on the back of the board and then press it home. It's a sort of practice area as ripping the lot off and getting a plasterer in wont cause any problems. If the gluing works out I'll glue the other side.

Next problem will be the trench in the floor. When the floorboards were removed due to rot and the whole lot filled with concreter they left a trench for pipe work. Water and gas. Long before we moved in. They didn't make a very good job of covering it with timber. No problem if it was under the units but it isn't and using the services would mean chiselling groove in the concrete. So as we have gas and water upstairs the best option looks to be to bring that down and disconnect the stuff in the trench and fill with concrete. The main problem then is that as I know my pipe fitting is fine it's very tempting to do the gas myself but I had better find a fitter to install a new cooker point.

All this legislation due to people not doing jobs properly. In the case of gas people who couldn't even be bothered to buy a manometer to check their work. I know this from talking to a plumbers merchant when we had a boiler fitted. The guy didn't have one, didn't see the need so I bought one to check his work. They cost peanuts in the scheme of things.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 22/11/2016 10:30:51

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

one more thing. I suspect I haven't had any end butted joints problems in the bathroom as I used a surform to put a bit of a chamfer on the edges – gets rid of the paper so the compound actually gets to the plaster. I did have a coarse surform blade but it's gone. While watching a video of a metal suspended ceiling being install I noticed that they ran something along the edges of the board before fixing them in place. Turns out to be a drywall rasp so I bought one. They trim the board a lot quicker than a fine surform but make a bit of mess of the edge of the paper. I think that can be trimmed up separately.

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Just stuck the first piece on and am wondering how long it takes to dry?

Mixed it like rather thick whipped cream, no slump if I pushed it to the side of the bowl at about 2" deep. Didn't need much for this piece. Put a good heaped table spoon on every 4" or so then had the bright idea of using g clamps to press it onto the timber it runs along – came out more or less true to the other piece and needed minimal pressure to correct. The strips is only about 10" wide and the 12mm plaster board more than stiff enough to compress the adhesive.

It stuck to the back of the board well and much easier to do than dot the wall. I had hoped to use it as a jointing compound but feel it's way to soft to work flat easily.

This boarding will have 2 exposed corners so will have to be protected with corner beading and skimmed. I had wonderer about adding a rad to the edge of the board but suppose it should be done properly as it might get chipped. One dodge I have heard of which does work but wont in this case is to edge it to copper tube as plaster sticks to it infuriatingly well if it has to be got off. Some plasterers use it to save having to duplicate old radiused cornered plaster which can be very tricky.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 22/11/2016 16:52:58

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It does not sand easily so don't be tempted to use it a sjoint filler. Will be firm within an hour but actual dry will depend on thickness and absorbtion rate of substrate, I'd give it overnight before doing any other work on it.

Get some corner tape which will save using bead and skimming. Ideally it should be used with TE board but works OK on SE or cut edges. Run a bit of Easyfill up the corner, press the tape on and then feather out the easyfill with a drywall knife or wide filling knife. The corner tape is two strips of metal ( like pallet banding)bonded to a paper backing, you just fold it to form the corner and have a thin metal edge which won't get dented.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Thanks Jason. I'll try that. The main question will be screwfix or toolstation. On of the screwfix reviews suggests using jointing compound on it. I need to get some anyway – premix as that I feel has to right and it doesn't cost much more than the bags.

I'v driven a dozen drywall screws now and am pleased with the drill I'm using. 100's to go, The lithium batteries went duff on my last one and stupid prices. I bought a Bosch GSB 18V-L1 plus some extra batteries to go in the drawer as they were on offer. On low speed it's great for driving them in and the clutch seems to be constant so far. It's easy to slow down and watch the last bit anyway, Last time I did some I used my mains ELU come B&D. 3/8" with a 1/2 inch chuck fitted. It's way more powerful but a bit of handful for the screws. The drill was the only one B&D had them do when they took ELU over. Irritating. They made much better tools.

The trumpet head drywall screws are going in nice and neatly. Pity I had to buy a 1000 of them but that's life. There supposed to a bit in the box somewhere.

John

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[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The "Easyfill" that I suggested is jointing compound, it's British Gypsum's powdered one. Also far better than any interior "pollyfilla" for general filling.

Don't forget to use some fibrglass tape on any joints between two boards to stop the joint cracking, easier than paper joint tape.

Here is one I did earlier in the year, TE board taped and filled with Easyfill, corner tape on the external corner.

[Steve PaveyParticipant @stevepavey65865]

+1 for the fibreglass jointing tape – it's self adhesive, and also a very open weave so the jointing compound gets a good grip on both the tape and the underlying plaster board. Paper jointing tape has a nasty habit of not sticking to the board, and you tend to find out after the job is complete..

I've always used a steel plastering trowel for the jointing as I don't get on with the filling tools that dry-wallers usually use.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

When I did the bathroom I was so annoyed about both of the rolls of stick on fibre glass tape not sticking I didn't use it. It was feather edge board and no signs of cracking. I used Wickes pre mixed jointing compound. It was easy to use and could take plenty of pressure to flatten it. The plasterer who skimmed it over was very impressed. It was all dead flat. I'll probably use it again. It's even worked ok on the hand cut taper edges. One of the reviews on Wickes site notes that it seems to be the perfect mix which isn't the easiest thing to do especially DIY.

Looking at screwfix the reviews reckon their tape will stick so I do intend to try it again. I even tried high pressure with a wall paper seam roller on the other stuff, everything I could think of.

I went looking for Wickes patching plaster but they don't offer it any more. They do offer a slow drying finishing plaster that I suspect is the same thing. It was pretty easy to feather out and could also fill deep holes in 2 layers. I've used it up to about 1" total. As the end of the wall it is only a few inches wide I intend to finish that off with this and also blend in the sides but I could use the jointer if it looks suitable. Suspect it might be too stiff. I think I can mix the plaster correctly. It needs to be just right to get a smooth finish easily as it takes some time to dry. A little wetter than my initial tries.

I watched an insurance plasterer do some work once. The theory worked out. He used brown stuff. Plastered a section of ceiling and then fetched some water from his van. Sprayed a bit on and it then started to harden so he could apply some pressure to get it smooth and flat. I offered him water out of the tap but he said no it must be clean water and we carry it around with us. Having tried I can't help wondering how he did it. Perhaps there was some lime in the water in the van or he used a mix that didn't have enough water in it to fully cure. Maybe there is some secret ingredient. As long as it can be flattened quickly it looks easy this way.

I know some one who skimmed with artex. Easy he said. If it isn't right just wet it and correct the problem and keep doing that until it's all perfect. Should be ok for walls that are only ever painted but no thanks in my case.

John

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[Steve PaveyParticipant @stevepavey65865]

The fibreglass tape only has to stick sufficiently to enable it to stay in place while the joint is being filled – the real adhesion comes from the filling compound when it sets around the weave of the tape. Before fibreglass tape, cotton scrim tape was used, which had no glue on it at all.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Its only about as stickey as a post it note, Main reason it would not stick in your case was you were trying to stick it to the bare plaster from your shaved tapered boards rather than onto the paper of proper TE, just won't stick to a dusty surface like that.

 

Also if your taped joints are flat enough why did the wall need skimming? thats the whole idea of taped and filled joints its called dry lining because you don't need wet plaster over the top

Edited By JasonB on 22/11/2016 20:36:08

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I didn't know that at the time Jason so he added about a 1mm skim over the lot not needing to blend in the joints.

It was feather board and the tape just wouldn't stick to it. Actually at the time feather edge was hard to find around here. The usual response was what do you want that for – jointing tape, nice thin strip of jointing over that and then skim the lot flat. Wickes was about the only place I could find that did it. None of the builders merchants had it.

From what I have done the problem with jointing is doing it onto the paper on the board. I didn't expect the tape to stick to the ones I did with a surform.

Actually I have seen a suspended ceiling demo video where the paper round the edge of the board is removed for jointing. Can't find the thing again but I'll post a link if I do. There is also a rasp available with a sort of guide along the edge for working on the sides of the board.

John

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