Files- best bang per buck

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

In my youth I recall that our joinery manager would use nothing but Nicholson files for sharpening the saw blades in our joinery shop ( pre tipped days)

Things have moved on a bit now though & as I need to buy a selection of files for general work ( not fine needle files) online i wondered what manufacturer of file the experienced among you look for as the most economical.

Clearly I do not want to buy something that I later regret & just paying high prices does not always mean the best value

Also I seem to recall that one can extend the life of files a little by dipping in acid- is this correct or am I dreaming?????

 

Thanks

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 12/07/2016 17:46:51

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

Back when I was an electrician in the 80s/90s I bought a relatively cheap set of Eclipse files for cleaning up trunking, conduit etc. They lasted me all of my 10 years in the trade and I'm still using them today. A little blunt now in the main work area but still sharp up at the dusty end.

Ed.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Sam,

Vallorbe is probably the safest bet these days.

… Great quality and variety.

I will post a link to the catalogue, if I can find it again.

MichaelG.

.

 See previous thread, here

My old link [in the thread above-mentioned] seems to be dead … Try here.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 12/07/2016 18:05:57

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 12/07/2016 18:14:46

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

To add to Michael.s "Vallorbe", you could also add "Pferd".

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I'd say that Vallorbe are the best bet as well but if some one has done heavy bench fitting I don't think they match up entirely with Stubs, now long since gone. They do cut well and cleanly though.

John

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[JonParticipant @jon]

Should be a couple of threads on here, in short files and hack saw blades went down the pan around 14 years ago all makes.

Vallorbe probably still the best of current crop but not a patch on what they were even early 2000's. Since used to file for a living you get to know how long certain files last which can be as little as 5% of earlier supposedly the same files from all makes. Swear blind most new breed don't cut as well either.
As a guide one type of file we bought by the box load was the 4" knife fine cut which lasted approx. 3 months used daily. New breed last 13 years showed same wear rate at 1 1/2 days totally had it at 3 days at think it was £14 a pop.

Personally don't know what I would do if used files as much nowadays, new ones cost a fortune at best last 1/3 as long. Cant beat the older files such as Stubbs or most Sheffield stamped would certainly buy s/h at least they will last.
Baco are presentable if not pushed hard, always remember a chap we did a crash course train with in a week. Brought his own Baco dead chuffed the bees knees and proud, working at 25% pace couldn't believe how worn his files had become within 1 hour. In general averaging out quality files then would have lasted us at 75% more material removal rate a good 3 weeks and that's the difference.

Acid etching bastard files may or may not give longer usage there is a high scrap rate. The ones deemed good to use just do not last a couple of hours against brand new one which may last 3 days. Not worth while.

[Stephen Bunch 1Participant @stephenbunch1]

Grobet Vallorbe, Honauer, Pferd, Nicholson and Proutat. Tome from Portugal used to make a good range of general files but are no longer as are Proutat rifflers.

SteveB

[Nick HughesParticipant @nickhughes97026]

If you have to ask the price……………………..

 

 

Edited By Nick Hughes on 12/07/2016 20:30:25

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Great video

Thanks, Nick

MichaelG.

[dcostaParticipant @dcosta]

Hello SteveB.

Happily the company Tomé Feteira is still alive.
See here ***LINK*** and it's easyer find their files in UK than in Portugal!

Best regards
Dias Costa

[Boiler BriParticipant @boilerbri]

FILES you sssaid FILES ———- don't get me going, caught one of our "skilled" fitters running one backwards over a job today………😢 Drives me mad —- I want Two skilled mechanical fitters for my company, where are they all hiding?😳

Bri. Not BOB

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Don't know what it's like in the UK and other places but here (Canada) it's getting hard to get files with an uncut edge for filing into a corner. At least at regular hardware stores. They are all cut on four sides.

The major local Tools & Machinery dealer shows them in their catalog(ue) but I haven't tried.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bandersnatch on 12/07/2016 22:15:18:

Don't know what it's like in the UK and other places but here (Canada) it's getting hard to get files with an uncut edge for filing into a corner. At least at regular hardware stores. They are all cut on four sides.

.

Your average DIY punter would probably think he's being short-changed if he is sold a file with a 'safe edge'.

MichaelG.

[Stephen Bunch 1Participant @stephenbunch1]

Greetings Dias.

That is good news .Rumored they were made on Nicholson machines .W. Pond ltd of Birmingham imported many files in 1965-75 ?

Round Oak Steel Works used hundreds of them. All gone now. SteveB

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I hope Dias is correct. Some one on ebay is selling 10" 2nd cut. Just bought one.

They are also around in standard quality – carbon steel. I suspect best quality would be in chrome steel. No idea what the ebay ones are but maybe old stock ?

The French ones look great – if some one needs a rasp. I have a set of Stubs riflers in rasp cut. Might be some use on aluminium but intended for wood. I saw them in Alpine House after it was just the smaller shop and thought great but they turned out to be rasps. The man offered a great price and pointed out that the chances of buying any other than this set were zero so I bought them.

John

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[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Posted by Boiler Bri on 12/07/2016 21:30:33:

FILES you sssaid FILES ———- don't get me going, caught one of our "skilled" fitters running one backwards over a job today………😢 Drives me mad —- I want Two skilled mechanical fitters for my company, where are they all hiding?😳

Bri. Not BOB

I am a mechanical fitter Bri, but i don't think they teach apprentices things as old fashioned as using files and hacksaws accurately anymore. When i served my time, in first year we went away to tech to learn the basics for six months.

For the first three months were were assigned tests in "bench fitting" , you would be given a drawing of say, a piece of 6mm steel plate 75mm x 75mm with a square hole 25mm x 25mm in the centre and a tolerance of 0.02mm on certain features of the piece. The piece also had to have square corners and edges square to the flats.

To be honest i enjoyed it, i always wanted to be a gunsmith and fitter was as close as i had gotten to that trade. The instructor we had was getting on, he retired shortly after we hd left, but the younger replacement instructors did not teach bench fitting.

" No one will pay you to stand at a bench filing bits of metal" was the cry. I suppose they are right, i was rarely asked to use a file after my apprenticeship ended, apart from knocking a birr off an edge on a piece coming out of a milling vice.

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Here in Oz, Wiltshire files were a favourite and many turn up at the markets. Excellent quality – I grab them when I can.

Nowadays, when buying new I find these to be of reasonable quality **LINK**

They are locally available and 'apparently' worldwide. Better than some of the rubbish around. Not exactly cheap but I find them good value for money.

Appropriate models have safe edges too.

* Danny M *

Edited By Danny M2Z on 13/07/2016 06:09:28

Edited By Danny M2Z on 13/07/2016 06:10:06

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Axminster Power Tools sell Vallorbe file at reasonable prices.

Oberg Bahco files (made in Portugal) are also fine by me.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I'm fascinated by the comment running files backwards. Not sure if this means lift off for the next stroke. A new one on me if it does. I'd be inclined to say you must be joking.

I had several months of serious amounts of metal removal with a file. The first job had so much excess material on it that they reckonned people would be able to file a cube flat and square by the time they had finished it. The final sizes were determined when they reckoned people were as good as they could get. The 2nd one had enough excess for people who could file reasonably well and some excess. One part for practice with a cold chisel which had to made first and the other with a hacksaw. Just broad chamfers to be finished with a file.

Reduce pressure obviously but lift off ! No way. I have seen odd people doing that but never ever in training or in a toolroom.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 13/07/2016 11:43:19

[Anonymous]

I've just ordered some hand and round Vallorbe files from Axminster. I've been using Vallorbe needle and riffler files for some years, so I'll be a happy bunny if the larger files are of the same quality.

Andrew

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Ajohnw on 13/07/2016 11:41:11:

 

Reduce pressure obviously but lift off ! No way. I have seen odd people doing that but never ever in training or in a toolroom.

 

I think thats mainly what they mean by not applying force to a backward stroke, presumably given enough time it will start to wear the teeth down and make each successive stroke that much harder. I've not actually seen this demonstrated however.

Like you said, theatrically moving the file off the workpiece to show you're doing it is going to make it much longer to finish the job, i was once told about 50 strokes per minute was a reasonable average, and that a decent fitter could use the same file every day for 3 months and still be in good nick with care. 

Michael W

 

Edited By Michael Walters on 13/07/2016 12:14:24

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I'd say 3 months easily with correct use and a lot of metal removal. Some people reckon that they need a bit of use to cut cleanly and efficiently. I wouldn't argue about that at all.

Filing flat and accurately is an odd process in some ways. Work needs to be at the correct height. At the 10 and 12" size the usual style of flat file with a safe edge should have a curve to it which tends to flattened in use. I reckon for truly accurate work purposefully lifting the file well off the work would mess it all up. There is also the point that a little bit of drag on the return stroke probably helps keep them sharp and maybe has something to do with them breaking in. Just a theory messed up by the curve but given that the pressure goes on after the stroke starts maybe not. Once people have the hang of say on a cube they check the error and then more or less change the angle of the file / play around the pressure on the file depending on the magnitude of the error. Done properly even with a large 2nd cut file the results will stand checking with blue, even the angles. Needs something smoother for a high quality finish.

I'd guess there are other people on here that made the infamous square within a square and fitted an odd shaped template to a hole in a block of steel. In these cases for perfect results people are working to extremely fine limits. I'd guess that even a couple of 1/10,000" will mess the square within a square up. Mine was a 1 inch square. Aim being to get a firmish fit that is exactly the same when the square is rotated. Also when it's put in sideways anywhere. Mine was a very very slightly firmer in one orientation. Wish I could still do it at times When I fit a set of soft jaws to a chuck I cheat and sometimes move the jaw rather than the file.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 13/07/2016 13:25:33

Edited By Ajohnw on 13/07/2016 13:26:47

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

"I'd guess there are other people on here that made the infamous square within a square "

When i was an apprentice those sadists gave me a piece of plate and asked me to get it square in all planes, it was a travesty to sort out and had the chief engineers scrutinizing every aspect of it, despite the fact they wouldn't imagine having to do these things themselves. As far as i could see i was the only one fiddling with metal to accurate sizes by hand whilst they're pushing buttons on their fancy machining centres.

If they really made all their workers do this in the 19th century as a test i'm surprised nobody stuck two fingers up at them, i bet it happened, you're essentially asking someone to make an extremely awkward thing for it's own sake and then blaming them when it goes wrong, they can't seem to understand why someone would get angry? It might be a useful exercise but borderline construed antagonizing. 

I only wish i could see the look on their faces if i asked one of them to get a plate all nice and square for me, oh and by the way, it's going to have the full works of inspection, i'd analyse it to hell, not because it's important just because i want them to. Would show them the picture beyond their mirror maybe? Sounds ridiculous. 

I'd suspect that maybe during those days, there wasn't a separation between "basic" skills(i'd call good filing an art form) and proffesional demands. I think the top engineers then would be expected to do filing but these days you're not so they no longer practice what they preach. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 13/07/2016 16:15:43

[JonParticipant @jon]

Agree there Michael but that was when there were proper engineers employed who made this country great. All gone now anything will do.

50 strokes a miniute with a file and lifting off, top whack looking 20-25 with a 12" bastard which will generate heat quick in the part and file.
Bri they might teach you something! I still cringe today at newbies/apprentices purposefully lifting off, taking an eternity to line up again, then push forward each stroke rounding job over.
Theres plenty of reasons not to lift off especially working to microns or end up with a scrap job after 6hrs work!

[Author]

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