Feed speed

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 06/11/2021 13:21:25:

[…]

As far as I'm aware they all come with the fine feed gear train set up as has been confirmed by another poster in this forum, can't explain why yours was different.

.

A logical assumption [whether valid or not] would be that ‘Inspection and Final Assembly” found that the change-wheels didn’t fit … so they took the easy option and put them in a tin box.

MichaelG.

.

Interesting quote from the Warco page :

• The WM 250 is supplied fully assembled and ready to go – once it arrives via our free delivery service, simply plug in and enjoy your new lathe.

Ref. https://www.warco.co.uk/metal-lathes/17-wm-250-variable-speed-lathe.html

… One might be forgiven for being a little confused.

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 06/11/2021 14:16:27

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Sam,

We are all trying to help you.

Be aware that sometimes it is possible to tighten a capscrew hard, but not clamp the item securely

If a spacing washer is missing or misplaced, the screw might be bearing against a shoulder and not actually clamping the the stud tightly..

So it always worth checking that this is not the case, or that there is a burr causing the problem.

In then past, I've been caught out by fitting a spacing washer with a recess the wrong way round!

It is possible that a capscrew could be bottoming in the hole, so that instead of clamping the stud firmly, you are trying to push the bottom out of the hole! The end of the screw will usually show evidence of this..

Taking a couple of mm off the end of the screw could work wonders, rather than trying to drill the hole deeper, and send the bottoming (plug ) tap in to produce the extra couple of threads.. You wouldn't want to risk breaking through when the wall thickness is not known.

Howard  Keys too small for my fingers again.

Edited By Howard Lewis on 06/11/2021 14:20:21

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by not done it yet on 06/11/2021 13:41:16:

…

Seems to me that either designs have gone backwards over the last 60 years or cheapness has taken over.

…

Not sure there's value in comparing a decent Raglan with a Far Eastern Hobby machine. NDIY forgets that few Model Engineers, if any, ever bought a new Raglan! They cost more than all but the very rich could afford to spend on a hobby. It's a good lathe because it cost a lot of money.

In contrast Far Eastern hobby lathes are affordable. But that means they have to be built down to a price. Of course they aren't as well-made as expensive industrial machines, then or now. But my hobby machines do what I want of them and as such are definitely value for money. Nice surprise: I bought Chinese expecting to replace it with something better and it's not been necessary.

Forum friends, I respect you all. Dare I hint though that you aren't keen to spend the money needed to get the wonderful kit you crave? Short arms and deep pockets. Perhaps inclined to enthuse about quality but not prepared to pay for it? We didn't buy enough Myfords or Boxfords to keep two good British firms in business. Instead, people went for affordable second-hand and affordable new machines. With luck second-hand will be in good condition and new hobby will be good enough despite not being the best of all possible machines. The system works well enough for cheapskates!

I'd like to see those who criticise Far Eastern machines go into competition with them. If foreign lathes are so dreadful, why aren't Brits producing better-made equivalents for about the same money? I'd buy one.

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 06/11/2021 14:58:03:

[…]

Far Eastern hobby lathes are affordable. But that means they have to be built down to a price. Of course they aren't as well-made as expensive industrial machines, then or now.

.

Absolutely correct, Dave

I only wish that Warco and others would tell it like that in their advertising.

[see my previous post]

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by not done it yet on 06/11/2021 13:41:16:

 

Are these really circlips that are used to secure the gears, or are the gears fixed in a more user-friendly way? The adjustment banjo seems to be only part of the problem. Clearly not all users are as clever as yourself. Perhaps the modern machines need to be made more fool-proof in this day and age? Like many modern items, they seem to be built for a (very) limited lifespan.

Can you not see the photos I posted?

I would say things have advanced as these items don't even need a screw to be loosened, saves any fool with a Pozi screwdriver trying to undo Phillips screws . doing away with the need for a screw also allows a button oiler to be used in it's place to make for easier lubrication of the bearing bush on the stud

As has already been mentioned Emco used almost exactly the same method but I don't see anyone running their design down.

Edited By JasonB on 06/11/2021 16:21:50

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 06/11/2021 14:10:24:

Posted by JasonB on 06/11/2021 13:21:25:

[…]

As far as I'm aware they all come with the fine feed gear train set up as has been confirmed by another poster in this forum, can't explain why yours was different.

.

A logical assumption [whether valid or not] would be that ‘Inspection and Final Assembly” found that the change-wheels didn’t fit … so they took the easy option and put them in a tin box.

MichaelG.

.

Interesting quote from the Warco page :

• The WM 250 is supplied fully assembled and ready to go – once it arrives via our free delivery service, simply plug in and enjoy your new lathe.

Ref. **LINK**

… One might be forgiven for being a little confused.

Well I went to warco to view my lathe before purchase, did not have the cross feed one on display so lifted a crate down with a forklift, prized the top and front off and plugged the machine into an extension lead and said try it for yourself. All feeds worked as they should so in my case it was plug and play. Did not look like the crate had been opened since it left the factory.

I can only go by my first hand experience of having a Warco lathe, all gears fitted without any need to ream. And yes NDIY I do agree that drilling and reaming holes that already have a keyway cut is unlikely to result in the reamed hole being concentric to the teeth, bore to finish size would have been best but this is the only case I have heard of the gears not fitting and all being in the toolbox. Was it a reduced price customer return?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 06/11/2021 13:20:50:

Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 06/11/2021 13:13:00:

[…]

All the change wheels were in a tin box & NOT fitted. They could not have been as supplied.

.

Mmm … Sounds like NDIY might have a valid point

MichaelG.

Though this that Sam posted a while ago in another thread by Sam would seem to suggest a set of gears was fitted

"I had a problem with my change wheels on my warco not fitting on the bushes & even the ones fitted had to be removed with a puller."

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 06/11/2021 16:40:28:

[…]

Though this that Sam posted a while ago in another thread by Sam would seem to suggest a set of gears was fitted

"I had a problem with my change wheels on my warco not fitting on the bushes & even the ones fitted had to be removed with a puller."

 

.

Obviously I cannot speak for Sam … but my guess is that what he meant was :

… even the ones that I did manage to force on had to be removed with a puller."

MichaelG.

.

We shall never know, until Sam clarifies the matter.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 06/11/2021 17:06:10

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 06/11/2021 15:56:41:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 06/11/2021 14:10:24:

[…]

Ref. **LINK**

… One might be forgiven for being a little confused.

[…]

Did not look like the crate had been opened since it left the factory.

[…]

Despite which :

• Every Warco lathe is fully run and tested by a qualified member of our team before leaving our premises, and is supplied with an individual accuracy test report.

So, does Warco have “a qualified member of our team” resident in China ?

… and does that run count for anything much ?

MichaelG.

[still a little confused]

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

…

[…]

Did not look like the crate had been opened since it left the factory.

[…]

Despite which :

• Every Warco lathe is fully run and tested by a qualified member of our team before leaving our premises, and is supplied with an individual accuracy test report.

So, does Warco have “a qualified member of our team” resident in China ?

… and does that run count for anything much ?

…

Doesn't mean they don't open the box and test it before despatch. When they get an order open the box, test, crate up again, ship.

I knew a chap who ran a little business getting things made in China. He had a local contractor independent of the manufacturer check stuff before they sent it. Added a little to the cost, but the quality improved markedly

[DiogenesIIParticipant @diogenesii]

Posted by not done it yet on 06/11/2021 13:41:16:

I’m not the only one making ‘blind’ comments.

The gears on a 1950s Raglan never needed the gear retaining set screws removing – just loosening sufficiently to slide off the gear-retaining slotted washer…

..No insult intended to your Raglan – I was referring to the ML7 (which even you will have to admit is a prime example of building-down to a budget in a competitive post-war market), with it's fixed dials and other little compromises for which the remedy was a bigger loan, etc..

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by duncan webster on 06/11/2021 17:27:20:

Doesn't mean they don't open the box and test it before despatch. When they get an order open the box, test, crate up again, ship.

That's how I understand it Duncan as has been covered on here a few times before. Looked like mine had not even had the crate opened before so have to assume it was OK as it left the factory.

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Must say that I have had very few problems with my WM250. It came with the fine feed change wheels fitted and worked straight 'out of the crate' so to speak. The banjo needs only a gentle tweak with an allen key to lock it in place and the gears are not , in my view, particularly noisy when set up as suggested in the manual. The manual might not be particularly good but I did read it before setting the lathe up. The table on the headstock cover of mine contained and error for setting up 1.75mm pitch thread but I assume this has been corrected on later models. Still working well after 14years although it doesn't get as much use as Jason's.

John

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by duncan webster on 06/11/2021 17:27:20:

[…]

Doesn't mean they don't open the box and test it before despatch. When they get an order open the box, test, crate up again, ship.

.

So which bit of running and testing results in a machine being delivered with change-wheels that don’t fit ?

MichaelG.

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 06/11/2021 21:05:50:

So which bit of running and testing results in a machine being delivered with change-wheels that don’t fit ?

MichaelG.

This all started out as a simple enquiry about feed speeds & now I feel that I am being put on trial.

First the machine came with all the wheels in the tin box. It was a long time ago & I am sure of that & I think that the bushes were in a couple of the wheels. If I remember rightly, the adjustable spindles, that slide up & down,were not fitted-  . But my memory has faded over 9 years so I may be wrong. I do know that I had to make some spacers for when there is a situation where one does not need a gear wheel so as to fill the void. I also know that the retaining washer still jumps out of the spindle because it does not necessarily sit vertically if the square end of the spindle finishes at an angle when tightened. That lets the gear wheel come off.

But while we are at it – some explanation, before I get slung in jail

I bought the machine through my business before I closed down to make use of the VAT & depretiation tax advantages etc. I intended to keep it for my own use after I retired. So I bought it before I needed it. But I did not use it for a long while as I went sailing for a couple of years when I did sell up. So it was out of warranty & i did not want the hassle of uninstalling a lathe that I had built up onto catnic lintols ( So its working height is 9 inches higher than the norm) & would need lifting down etc.

When I did get to use it, the on off switch often had to be pressed lots of times before the lathe would start- Up to 6 presses of the on/off button- If I pressed the green button & nothing happened & did not press stop, it sometimes engaged a little while later & started running, without warning- With my hand in the b…dy thing.

My solution was to remove the back cover place a bit of wood against an electrical part that seems to engage on a rail of some sort. Then refit the cover, forcing the wood against the part & forcing it onto the rail. Now it works first go 95% of the time & if not, I invariably get it to go second push. In any event I have learned the hard way to make sure I turn it off if it does not start.

As for machining I purchased the QCTP. I do use this for boring, but only that. It is not much use for anything heavy due to deflection.  I donot use the topslide because when parting off one can see it dip up to 6mm if the tool catches.-Yes I know about gib strips-  I have had to remove the topslide & mount the 4 way tool post on a block on the cross slide so as to get rigidity. At least I can now part off easily with an eclipse blade. This is really what prompted me to look at powering the feed again so I can get a nice even cut when parting off. But one should be able to mount the tool holder on the topslide & still part off OK

So as far as I am concerned there could not have been much quality control. But I had the machine to long   before I actually used it to complain to Warco

I do not have a lot of faith in the WM16 mill either. But that is another subject.

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 06/11/2021 22:32:28

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks for the input, Sam

I will try to refrain from saying or asking anything more about this.

But hopefully you still have all your fingers.

MichaelG.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Sam

I think that you really need someone to come, study the manual and look over the machine with you.

Where are you located?

Chances are that it may be possible for someone experienced to solve your problem, hands on.

It appears to have the facility to alter feed rate / thread pitches by means of the one of the knobs on the control panel.

Have not yet been able to find an image large enough to see clearly.

What changewheels were "in the tin box"?

My particular lathe has a Norton gearbox, giving 48 combinations.so only two alternative changewheels came in the toolbox with it

And the manual only mentioned one alternative!

The extra one has turned out to be a real boon to extend the range of threads that can be cut, or feed rates.

Will you please list the gears that came with the machine, including those already fitted on the machine.

If everyone has all the facts, it will be easier to help you.

Howard.

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Thanks for the offer but personally I would rather call an end to it. I have lots of info to digest & I believe that having studied the above i will be able to move forward Ok. I really need to spend more time. My boat is being lifted out of the water next week, so I will have that time to experiment.

But I would like to thank everyone for their input

Sam L

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Howard, there is a very basic gearbox on the front giving a choice of three positions A, B & C. A is straight through, C is half the input and B is double the input.

So as an example you set one of the suggested feed gear combinations and then you have three different feed rates at the turn of the front lever

Several of us have said the finest range works for us, I have suggested if Sam wants faster he pics the next range up anymore and he simply needs to change one of the small gearwheels for a slightly larger one but the machine may not like it particularly in the B position. Cross feeds are about 40% of what is on this non cross feed 250 chart. There is a fixed 40T on the spindle which will be driving the 70T or 60T on the chart, 3mm pitch lead screw

Sam the 0.14mm is almost the same as the tangental tool guy was using in his video being 0.0055" compared to his 0.006"

As for the C shaped retaining washers coming off again not something I have suffered from when running.. You do need to position them correctly, with a square head to locate on you have two possible positions for example the square could be sitting with one side at 60 deg to vertical and the other at 30degrees, put the spacer on so it is at the more vertical of the two possible positions. If you don't get that then I can do a sketch.

 

Edited By JasonB on 07/11/2021 07:41:32

[clogsParticipant @clogs]

In the early days I was thinking of buying a new lathe and mill…….

I heard of Warco and their Chinese stuff…….I contacted them and wern't very helpful…!!!!!!

just glad I didn't go that route…..

was offered a nearly new WM mill by a local widow……she sold the house with the ready made worshop….

Another LUCKY ESCAPE…..

In the end, I bought an as new Myford 7 (with screw/c g/box) and a Myford VMF mill both with shipping wax still on….

Plus a one owner Colchester Student square top and a full size Bridgeport J head mill…..

now very happy…..

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Clogs, not sure of your point but my 2d worth, working in industry I had access to every machine tool under the sun & a Myford super 7 at home, now retired the Myford is with my son to play with. I lusted after a newish Boxford or small CNC but in the end got a Warco 290V, it's as rough as hell in places but does cut parallel with plenty of power, I ditched the crappy change gears & fitted an electronic lead screw control which is brilliant, I also have a Myford VME mill fitted with DRO, power feed & VFD. My opinion of the Myfords 7's are that they are vastly over priced & limited in every way. The Warco's are not the best quality but you do get a lot of capacity.

Tony

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Somehow these threads always go down the myford is best route. Which is nonsense. My Chinese lathe is fine for what it is – a lot of lathe for the money with DRO and coolant thrown in. Yeah, a couple of little niggles to start with – mostly down to finally finding the Chinese cigarette butt wedged into an interlock switch that whoever had cross-checked things used as a safety device and forgot to remove. At least that implies that final checks were made by someone more than 6 or 7 yrs old and that the lathe is genuine Chinese. I’m sure a brand new installed and commissioned Monarch Lathe would have been nicer but nowhere near my price point.

pgk

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 06/11/2021 21:22:33:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 06/11/2021 21:05:50:

…

… now I feel that I am being put on trial. …

Don't think that – we're trying to help, not poke fun.

I'm all too aware of operator shortcomings because it turns out I'm not god's gift to Machining. This is very strange because I'm good at other things. Sadly a successful professional career didn't transfer into workshop skills.

By coincidence Jason and I have similar equipment: in theory I should produce stuff as well as he does. In practice he's significantly faster and more reliable than me. Plenty of others do the same. Being self-taught is part of my problem, but I'm also clumsy, impatient and likely to make unwise assumptions. Quite often I spoil parts at the last minute by rushing the finish. Silly short-cuts a speciality.

It doesn't matter. I'm into Model Engineering for fun and interest, not proving I'm a second Cherry Hill! Even so, I've spent years experimenting and perfecting my workshop technique. Competence didn't come quickly. Although machining is superficially simple, there are a lot of gotchas. Apprentices are taught to avoid them by time-served experts, I had to fix problems myself. Not always obvious, and the answer is often applying tools 'just so', which only comes with practice, practice, practice. The forum is wonderful: I've picked up so many practical hints from other people.

Curious thing, all my tools were complete carp when I started. Nothing worked as expected. But after persisting, the same tools suddenly started performing! Possibly they improved with time. More likely I'd gradually learned to use them properly. Nowadays I expect new processes to go wrong and am rarely disappointed! But so far, I haven't hit anything I can't do provided I take the time to work at it logically. As so many workshop problems are caused by operators, it pays to seek advice, even if one's ego is bruised.

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Dave,

I do hope that you have noticed that Sam’s Post was massively edited after my comment and my follow-up were posted.

Whilst your quoting is technically valid, I do feel it portrays me as being on the wrong side of the debate.

My response [that you have quoted] was to Duncan, not to any post of Sam’s

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 07/11/2021 11:03:29:

By coincidence Jason and I have similar equipment: in theory I should produce stuff as well as he does. In practice he's significantly faster and more reliable than me. Plenty of others do the same. Being self-taught is part of my problem,

You can't go using that excuse Dave, I'm also self taught unless you include a bit of metal work at school.

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