FAULTY DRILL BITS !

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Simon, Bill Et al, The thread started with a conversation between me and a member, as he was having trouble drilling some holes. The following day I was in a local tool stockists and mentioned said conversation to be shown a good quality drill bit that had been COMPLETELY wrongly ground – it had NO cutting edge at all. After grinding it had been coated, TiN. MY question was had anybody else come across new, wrongly or poorly ground drill bits ? Noel.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by noel shelley on 15/03/2022 20:21:44:

Simon, Bill Et al, The thread started with a conversation between me and a member, as he was having trouble drilling some holes. The following day I was in a local tool stockists and mentioned said conversation to be shown a good quality drill bit that had been COMPLETELY wrongly ground – it had NO cutting edge at all. After grinding it had been coated, TiN. MY question was had anybody else come across new, wrongly or poorly ground drill bits ? Noel.

I thought that was the case, but did wonder if other folk might be latching onto the wrong thing re. BASS 666's problem.
Yes I've had some bits supplied with very odd profiled ends, mainly when purchasing cheap sets from Aldi/Lidl etc.
Most of the bits in the sets have been OK, but odd ones have been way off, to the extent of the cutting edge never meeting the workpiece. Might be OK in wood where the work will deform with more pressure, but certainly u/s in metal.
That said, I have still bought cheap sets from time to time, and re-sharpened where required.
The HSS itself seems reasonable, just the grinding geometry.
I use the Lidl sets for normal day to day use, and my better quality ones when I have a need for a specific hole size, such as a tapping job.

Bill

[Bob Unitt 1Participant @bobunitt1]

I bought a set of 'tungsten' twist-drills at an ME exhibition a few years ago. When I first used one of them it 'untwisted' as soon as it started cutting, so I ended up with straight flutes ! Needless to say, that set went into the bin before they could do any more damage – the case came in handy later for some better drills though.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

I have had some Brazilian Dormer drills and the front end goes from ok to appalling, seems to change with sizes so perhaps its poor sharpening set up?

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Shame to see the once quality names joining the pack to provide junk quality made by cheap labour under appalling working conditions in poorer countries. There seems to be very little pride in product left in the modern world.

(And I suppose old gits have been saying similar things ever since the second tree root was carved into a club in a cave somewhere in the Neander Valley.)

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

For the vast majority of home DIY'ers who put up the occasional shelf then the drill bit quality matters less than price when popped into a cheapo cordless drill. Under those circs it’s not surprising that Dodge and Blag Drill Co knocks stuff out to accommodate the market and then it's hardly a stretch to stamp Dormer or Guhring etc on the blank instead of Wong Hoal. Once we got to this globalisation situation then Trading Standards lost its teeth.
For all that I've been quite happy with my jobber quality drills being more than capable of outperforming me. When it comes to a tap sized hole half the folk on here seem to recommend they’re on the larger size anyway and if there's really need for a 'correct' sized hole than reaming or boring is indicated.
I've never had a jobber drill that wouldn't cut metal except as per my previous when this idiot had the mill in reverse.

pgk

[Henry BrownParticipant @henrybrown95529]

I've had some appallingly ground drills from UK Drills and Rennie from ebay, always the smaller sizes, I usually hunt around for old stock Dormer and the like when I'm at a loose end.

I've not used drills from RDG but have found their milling cutters and with the exception of a poor SOBA knurling tool things from them they are good value for money.

Having said that I do quite like the better quality drills from Toolstation if I need to get one in an emergency…

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

FOLLOW UP ! The tool stockist mentioned at the beginning of the thread is giving me the drill bit that started this, which I will photo and put on here so you can all see what I was on about ! Noel

[Oven ManParticipant @ovenman]

Posted by bernard towers on 18/03/2022 08:48:18:

I have had some Brazilian Dormer drills and the front end goes from ok to appalling, seems to change with sizes so perhaps its poor sharpening set up?

When Dormer moved their production from the UK to Brazil they shipped out all the production equipment. We were involved in moving some of the heat treatment facilities. I suppose as time has gone on most of the people who went out there to set it up will have been replaced by a local workforce and management. Perhaps it should not be considered the same comany these days.

Peter

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Oven Man on 18/03/2022 10:38:35:

Posted by bernard towers on 18/03/2022 08:48:18:…

When Dormer moved their production from the UK to Brazil …

Perhaps it should not be considered the same company these days.

Peter

Before Brazil, Dormer manufactured in Italy and Mexico.

The company, making good products but losing money, was acquired by Sandvik 30 years ago.

Sandvik's HQ is in Stockholm, but it looks like a multi-national to me.

Sandvik merged Dormer with Pramet(Czechoslovakia) and the grouping currently trades as Dormer-Pramet. They manufacture in Czechoslovakia, Brazil, USA and India.

Few companies are the same these days! Who owns them and where they manufacture and pay tax is fluid and far from simple.

Dave

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Pramet are in the Czech Republic, there hasn't been a place called Czechoslovakia since 1 Jan 1993.

Martin C

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

Posted by Martin Connelly on 18/03/2022 13:07:42:

Pramet are in the Czech Republic, there hasn't been a place called Czechoslovakia since 1 Jan 1993.

Martin C

And yet strangely we all knew what he meant?

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Martin Connelly on 18/03/2022 13:07:42:

Pramet are in the Czech Republic, there hasn't been a place called Czechoslovakia since 1 Jan 1993.

Martin C

Presumably you meant Czechia.

As a rebranding for promotion and logo reasons I still think that was a mistake – too similar to Chechnya.

pgk

[Bdog507Participant @bdog507]

Good morning all.

Drill bits are a bit of a lottery nowadays it would appear. New old stock Dormer drills are my preference, and can often be bought for little money on ebay etc. Only a couple of weeks ago I got ten 5/16th Dormer drills for £15 delivered. I've found that there's little difference between Brazilian Dormer, and old UK Dormer.

I bought a box of Ruko drills from MSC some years ago. They went from 1 mm to 10 mm in .5mm increments, and there were 10 of each. Once I'd got shot of a few that were bent, I found that they were quite simply awful! They would break with ease, and were really only any good for making pilot holes in soft stuff on the lathe or mill. One daren't use them freehand.

Yet a set of 'el cheapo' far eastern blacksmith drills from MSC I bought have had some serious abuse, have been reground many times, and are still going.

Cheers.

Stewart.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

I used to buy my smaller drill bits from UK drills but the sharpening was rubbish, obviously no quality control.

Tony

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I am rather surprised that people have had bad experience with Dormer drills, I have various sets of Dormer drills and hundreds of loose ones and really can’t remember a dud among all of them. Being a top brand they will be first in line for the fake brigade to copy. Hopefully major suppliers will source them from the proper sources and should be the genuine item.

Mike

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

OK., not drill bits but on the same lines, Just received a two tube box of 'Araldite' purchased from 'that' site from a UK supplier, box clearly marked "For sale only within India" Mktd by Pidilite Adhesives, Mfd by M/S Goodwill Enterprises.

Regards Ian.

[BASS 666Participant @bass666]

update …… i have used the drills a couple of times now and broke a 3.5 mm drill on mild steel and iv had to sharpen a couple as well …. i might as well have bought the £70 ones from Ebay and no one will tell me they are not the same drills now ….. lesson learnt i suppose ….

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Same as Mike all my dormers cut fine, I tend to only buy the A002 and A022 (stub) ones with the split point, used to get them from MSC but use ARC now they have become Dormer stockists.

[David JennerParticipant @davidjenner61726]

I bought these from DW Toolshop in Ireland.

Presto 55 Piece HSCo DIN338 Drill Bit Set 1.0mm – 13.0mm X 0.5 + Tapping Sizes

They work fine.

Many years ago I bought a set of cobolt drills from Harbour Freight, all imperial sizes including number and letter drills, these have also been very good.

I once bought a small set of drills for an emergency repair on holiday (Rolson) without a doubt the worst drills I have ever used! They would catch then unwind the flutes!

Regards Dave

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Wow. Sounds like the "genuine Mitutoyo" DTI gauge I bought, with mini hydraulic magnetic stand, all for $20 (10 quid) including delivery. LOL. Bizarrely it actually has given good service for five years or so now. But Mitutoyo must have got onto them because I see them on "that auction site" now with the logo on the dial saying "Mitutogo" .

But when you look at it, it is defo not a Mitutoyo. Dovetails for the clamp are rough diecast, not machined, the finger pivot bearings are pointed screws, not tiny tiny ball bearings, and the clamp broke in half the first time I finger tightened it!

Further research revealed Mitutoyo have pages on their website on how to spot fakes of their products. Mostly digital calipers. So there must be quite an industry making knock offs.

Thing is when you buy from a seller at a model show, or a bricks and mortar store in your own country, you assume it's genuine. Apparently now that is not always the case. National distributors have been known to get hoodwinked by container loads of non-genuine car parts posing as the real thing. So it may not even be the individual end seller who is dodgy, but someone further up the food chain.

The motto for our times is definitely Caveat Emptor.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Mike Poole on 19/03/2022 08:45:50:

I am rather surprised that people have had bad experience with Dormer drills, I have various sets of Dormer drills and hundreds of loose ones and really can’t remember a dud among all of them.

Maybe I'm just unlucky; the first drill I came to use from the first set of Dormer drills I ever bought (as opposed to borrowed) was a dud.

That didn't discourage me, though; Dormer A120 stub drills are currently my preferred choice for most drilling operations.

 

Edited By Bill Phinn on 19/03/2022 12:24:03

[David AmbroseParticipant @davidambrose86182]

I bought a Dormer centre punch from a stand at Ally Pally a few years ago, and it appeared not to have been hardened, as it was blunt after a few goes.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by pgk pgk on 18/03/2022 15:14:19:

Posted by Martin Connelly on 18/03/2022 13:07:42:

Pramet are in the Czech Republic, there hasn't been a place called Czechoslovakia since 1 Jan 1993.

Martin C

Presumably you meant Czechia.

As a rebranding for promotion and logo reasons I still think that was a mistake – too similar to Chechnya.

pgk

Peter (Oven Man) said of Dormer 'Perhaps it should not be considered the same company these days.' Absolutely right! And look closer, and you find that entire countries have changed as well! Everything changes.

Picking up on Mike's comment 'I am rather surprised that people have had bad experience with Dormer drills', me too. As far as I can tell Dormer drills have always been well-made, though I'm sure they've had their share of production errors.

Never mind Dormer! Judging by this forum, there are widespread problems with all tools and materials. This is unlikely because it would cause global industry to grind to a halt, and they haven't. I suggest other factors are at play:

• Old folk tend to believe everything was better when they were young and in a sense they're right – life is full of opportunity at the beginning with little to look forward to at the end. Our perception of the past becomes skewed because we remember the best bits from when we were young and filter out negatives. More! In retirement we watch many of our achievements and methods being demolished by the current generation without understanding why. It's because we gradually become out-of-date, unaware how circumstances have changed. Judging by pension age opinion through the ages, the 'quality' of everything has been in decline for at least two millennia. We would all be living in caves if it was true.
• Industry buy tools and materials carefully, selecting by specification rather than brand-name or hearsay. They have considerable expertise on hand, either in-house or bought in. Industry methods are likely to be optimised in ways amateurs can't achieve, for example the cutting speed, coolant and lubrication of a twist drill will be adjusted to maximise profit on a single operation, where tool wear and tool-change time are carefully balanced to a financial outcome.
• In contrast, home-workshops buy and use tools and materials haphazardly. We search for 'bargains' increasing the risk of getting the wrong specification, fakes, factory rejects or too cheap. We're liable to buy the wrong tools for the wrong reasons and use them on inappropriate scrap. We might not twig that the cheap carbon-steel jobber drills unsuitable for metalwork are plenty 'good enough' for light DIY home-renovation woodwork. Likewise, we might not realise that expensive brand-name twist drills made for a particular industrial purpose aren't good for us either. Assuming that all twist-drills should be ideally suited to Model Engineering dooms us to disappointment. Small workshops are also likely to use the same drill for different purposes, anything between gouging holes in tinplate, to deep holes in Stainless, with an operator who guesses rpm and feed-rate, whilst clearing swarf and applying lubricant haphazardly. Craftsman rather than scientific methods.

I say buying tools is complicated, not a simple matter of choosing a brand, or assuming foreign goods are inferior, or applying that useless word 'quality, or assuming the world going to the dogs!

Good news is that ordinary mid-range 85° HSS twist-drills do almost everything I need and last reasonably well. I avoid working with scrap metal, instead buying alloys designed to be machined. It's worth keeping a new sharp set of drills for Brass.

Moderately priced drills (and other tools) bought from reputable suppliers work well for me, but I don't expect miracles. I think, but can't prove, that my Dormer drills stay sharp longer than the unbranded ones, but it may be because I keep expensive tools for special occasions. This is another form of bias: noticing that posh-tools kept in a cupboard last longer than well-used cheap ones, one unfairly assumes cheap tools are rubbish.

My tool purchasing policy would be different if my workshop had to make money. Mid-range and hobby tools are good value for money here because my workshop is lightly loaded and unhurried. Different if I was working against the clock and having to make a profit. In that case, calculating value for money shifts in favour of selecting long-lasting tools and adopting working methods that get the best out of them. But this isn't Model Engineering for fun and interest!

Dave

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

just out of interest my son works at a facility with a BIG cnc shop and the drills and milling cutters they use are names I've never heard of and I've been cutting metal for a looooong while so perhaps the old tool manufacturers have been left behind, a bit like the car and bike industry

Edited By bernard towers on 19/03/2022 19:00:31

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