Fantastic British engineering

[robjon44Participant @robjon44]

Hi all, with regard to the relentless march of modern technology its really a case of smoke 'em if you've got 'em or be trampled underfoot I'm afraid, I am not being unkind nor am I speaking in home workshop terms, but in the Big Wide World Out There terms. My go to disparaging remark to folk who can't cut it ( literally ) is "my granny could do better than that", at the age of 17 during WW1, she worked in a factory making aero engines as a turner, I'm willing to bet if they could have had the tech that is available now they would have snatched your hand off! Fast forward 50 years, whilst in my apprenticeship as a skilled turner I was given a brand new Herbert No 7C, flame hardened bed, what was basically an electrically operated DSG gearbox enabling access to all speeds while spindle running, copying attachment, brass turners guard to stop one getting a faceful of swarf, whoa! what a ripper, fast forward another 40 years & I purchased that very machine at the dawn of the 21st century for the princely sum of £640, while we awaited the finishing of the construction of a 3,500 square foot industrial unit to fulfil my then employers dream of filling it to the ceiling with CNC machines for sub contract machining, which soon came to pass, in the meantime I demonstrated the Herbs capability at demolishing metal, I should add that by this time I had been a CNC machinist or Programmer/ Setter/ Operator for some 35 years, during this extended period of time I had seen the demise of the british car & motorcycle industries because they were campaigning machine tools they had purchased before WW2 whilst competing with Japanese companies who turned over their inventory every 3 years. When I had the great joy of attending the Mazak factory in Worcester to take the training course for their Mazak Fusion twin head lathe I reckoned I was pretty close to the leading edge of modern technology, you know, internal & external CCTV cameras, iris recognition to keep sticky fingers off the control panel etc etc & all the coffee you could drink! So in industry its a case of fit in or ……. you know the rest.

However in the home workshop setting the availability of suitable machines, lathes, mills, drilling machines is fast drying up, I myself pigged out while the going was good, therefore my Acorntools 7" shaper was single phase from new, as is the Meddings floor standing drilling machine, Warco lathe/ mill & somewhat rare Pools Special lathe, the only one with countershaft drive as standard, (see Lathes.co.uk) complete with original motor still whizzing along, very nearly older than me & I'm older than dirt! so there is still suitable gear out there, although a tad difficult to acquire in the current deeply unpleasant circumstances.

Cheers & Keep Safe Bob H

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Ahh, the "Good" old days when you could always tell where a British car/ Motorbike had parked by the oil stain on the floor. Basic problem with industry?, we demanded more pay for doing less. The Lotus eaters or the Eloi from H.G.Wells. Worked in precision/heavy/electronic industries over more than fifty years and thoroughly enjoyed my time despite not the highest pay but came to realise the evils of Unions and the fact that Joe public wanted the most for the least cost or effort.

Late Brother in law had a farm on Jersey and talking about Holidays, his comment was "Try telling a cabbage in the fields it's Christmas."

"Would have paid £500 more for a good lathe" In my apprenticeship (underpaid slaves, NOT todays mob) a Myford was totally out of reach and took a redundancy (Factory closure) payment to afford, years later, my Maximat being sold off.

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

Regards Ian.

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

I have a friend who started as an apprentice at an engineering company in the UK. For the last 14 years he has been MD. They sell a particular product all over the world & he goes to exhibitions regularly. He sells to companies ranging from the Belgian navy & shipping lines etc as well as leisure sector. The product he sells has to be carefully designed (his skill) & properly manufactured.

When I asked him why he has his designs made mainly in China, he said the high quality machining was available & at economic price. The quality was exceptional. I asked why he could not get in the UK. He said that for larger items there were no facilities. He did buy smaller parts in the UK but he said that he only did it to show a lip service to the UK.

Generally UK subcontractors were such a pain to deal with, quality & delivery times were unreliable & he had more trouble getting stuff in the UK that he really found it so much easier going to the large number of firms in China.

Aside from that subject I suspect that there is another reason that the govt would be happy to allow manufacturing to go overseas. We have a strong green lobby in this country. There is a strong lobby to reduce our carbon emissions due to global warming etc( I should not say so here, but it is a scam, but that is not the subject of the thread)

By exporting our manufacturing capability overseas we also export our carbon emissions. It is a false preconception to say that we are reducing our emissions when we are having stuff made by a country that is building dozens of coal fired power stations every year to produce our goods for us.

But lower emissions look good to the gullible. The left are quite happy to be out of work & live on the dole, paid for by others, provided they do not watch their kids coughing their guts up in the streets due to exhaust gasses

It is a difficult balancing act

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

S.O.D looks to me as though Father Christmas is operating a shaper.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Baz on 23/04/2020 13:34:11:

S.O.D looks to me as though Father Christmas is operating a shaper.

Thought it might be a planer since the action looks to be horizontal and DoC adjustment vertical?

The elves seem to have a variety of tasks and machines…

Edited By Mick B1 on 23/04/2020 14:02:50

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Mick B1 on 23/04/2020 14:02:09:

Posted by Baz on 23/04/2020 13:34:11:

S.O.D looks to me as though Father Christmas is operating a shaper.

Thought it might be a planer since the action looks to be horizontal and DoC adjustment vertical?

The elves seem to have a variety of tasks and machines…

Edited By Mick B1 on 23/04/2020 14:02:50

Nah, shaper, with a planer the job moves, with a shaper it stands still (hopefully). If I had room I'd definately buy a shaper, but I haven't.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by duncan webster on 23/04/2020 15:43:49:

Posted by Mick B1 on 23/04/2020 14:02:09:

Posted by Baz on 23/04/2020 13:34:11:

S.O.D looks to me as though Father Christmas is operating a shaper.

Thought it might be a planer since the action looks to be horizontal and DoC adjustment vertical?

The elves seem to have a variety of tasks and machines…

Edited By Mick B1 on 23/04/2020 14:02:50

Nah, shaper, with a planer the job moves, with a shaper it stands still (hopefully). If I had room I'd definately buy a shaper, but I haven't.

Yes, indeed you're right for what looks like the majority of planers, but there seems to be some flexibility of terms:-

Planer? Shaper?

This one says it's a planer – the tool moves to do the cutting stroke and it looks as if the table-mounted work feeds sideways at the end of the stroke.

But the shaper I've seen most recently cuts vertically down towards a 4-axis (includes rotary) table – I was watching railway axle bearing shells being rough 'bored' on it, IIRC preparatory to white-metal lining. That's why I thought Father Christmas' machine wasn't one o' them.

[AdrianRParticipant @adrianr18614]

Similar but different Making Armstong Guns Lots of singed men, often close enough to light their fags from the molten iron.

I always wondered about how the wiring of barrels was done, now I know.

[dcostaParticipant @dcosta]

Hello,
Apparently it's a shaper. In **THIS** enlarged image, it is possible to see the groove where the shaper feedrate governing mechanism runs.
Also, in horizontal alignment of Father Christma's hand, to the right side, the T-groove of the fixing table appears to be visible.
Finally, to the right of Father Christmas's knee, what appears to be the manual feed handle of the table and the connection that transmits the rotary movement for the automatic advance of the table is visible.
Just an opinion

Dias Costa

Edited By dcosta on 23/04/2020 16:35:11

[clogsParticipant @clogs]

I worked for an oversea's firm with it's RnD in the UK…..

the finished machine ran out at just over £4.5mill……

Our part was about a Mill……

All designed by Persons not knowing one end of a spanner from the other……..yes, bias'd view…..

I spotted a major design fault, on telling the powers that B of the prob….. was told that it was calculated by a computor code by somebody with more letters after his name than the Alphabet……and not a low life like me…..

Neadless to say machine No 2 destroyed itself……

I was called to the office as the person in charge/responsible for the build……

Turned out I was correct in my thinking……

My very first eMail ever was to send (now known as a Round Robin) to all concerned…that I was not happy with the design….

that got my head of the block……

Outcome of the headache……a major refit of the machines and the £4.5mill……well, that was swept under the carpet as apperently the whole project was funded by the EU…….

so thats all right then…!!!!!!!!!!

there will ALWAYS be them in suits and us with dirty hands…..

could go on but very few in the design office will ever earn my RESPECT…..rant over…..hahaha

now 70 and enjoying my retirement thanks……

[egaParticipant @ega]

clogs:

I think your email sounds more like a circular than a round robin. Strictly, the latter was used by low lifes and trouble makers to prevent the identification of the originator, the signatures being affixed around a circle.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

But the shaper I've seen most recently cuts vertically down towards a 4-axis (includes rotary) table

That format is usually called a "slotter" in the UK. Used to cut keyways & splines in bores among other uses – the Ordnance factory in Nottingham had a CNC converted one for cutting the slot for the breech block in the breech rings for tank and naval guns.

but there seems to be some flexibility of terms

Usually in the UK if the tool moves over a stationary part the machine is s shaper, if the part moves under a stationary tool the machine is a planer. Capable machines all and, while not the fastest, they can do some operations better than the more "modern" machines that have supplanted them.

Nigel B.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Nigel, Duncan, Baz,

Well, it looks like it's something I've not had properly sorted in my head for nearly 50 years! I have to admit that I've had very little contact with either planers or shapers – they simply weren't present in the ten or so machine shops I worked in in the 70s and early 80s, and even then people – even those who rated them – talked of them mainly in the past tense.

I've used the basic technique in lathes for cutting keyways and even for squaring round holes to fit valve shanks and suchlike – sometimes with the tool in the toolpost and sometimes with it in the chuck and the work in the vertical slide – but you finish the job knackered, and with blisters on your carriage wheel hand!

I think someone may have said the vertically-working machine I described was a slotter at the time, but not elaborated on why.

Thanks for clearing that lot up.

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Surprised that nobody has so far mentioned the total lack of PPE in the picture.

[Michael BriggsParticipant @michaelbriggs82422]

It did Baz but didn't post, also Santa's beard and all those unguarded machine drives.

[Boiler BriParticipant @boilerbri]

No PPE. No blame claim culture in them days.

Bri

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by clogs on 23/04/2020 16:58:27:

I worked for an oversea's firm with it's RnD in the UK…..

the finished machine ran out at just over £4.5mill……

Our part was about a Mill……

All designed by Persons not knowing one end of a spanner from the other……..yes, bias'd view…..

I spotted a major design fault, on telling the powers that B of the prob….. was told that it was calculated by a computor code by somebody with more letters after his name than the Alphabet……and not a low life like me…..

I started using Autocad some 25 to 30 yrs ago, not sure, it ran on Dos 4. . Mostly for electrical drawings. My Client Rowntree mac's & then Nestle had a battle on there hands. The problem was the product I,e Toffee crisp & After 8 mints, cost very little to make. The problem was the packaging was very expensive. The battle was with Germany where they made the same product but cheaper due to there packaging was cheaper. The R&D department was quite large. I managed to get them to let me have a copy of the packaging drawings. Within about 2 weeks I came up with a much better packaging solution , which saved around 35% on materials & forming. I gave them the drawings & boom. Nothing. Then some time later they came up with my drawings & went into production with them. Cowbags.

Saving grace if you can call it that was Germany came up with an even better design. Now most of the After 8 mints & lots of the Toffee crisp is made in Germany & at least 2 factories closed down in the UK. Sad times

Steve..

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Michael Briggs on 23/04/2020 20:27:41:

It did Baz but didn't post, also Santa's beard and all those unguarded machine drives.

That'll be why he's on the shaper.

Doesn't bear thinking about, putting him on one o' them lathes.

The stroke on the shaper's probably shorter than his beard, so it's the safest place for him.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

The lack of PPE in the pic is nothing. Check out some of the videos of old machine shops on YouTube like the one linked to above on the gun factory. Pouring molten steel to cast huge naval gun barrels with no safety glasses in sight and blokes squinting through the sparks flying everywhere. Then they take glowing red barrel and put it under the drop forge steam hammer the same way.

Edited By Hopper on 24/04/2020 13:41:17

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Hopper on 24/04/2020 13:40:12:

…

Check out some of the videos of old machine shops on YouTube like the one linked to above on the gun factory. …

Edited By Hopper on 24/04/2020 13:41:17

Yeah, check out their life expectancies. I seems to remember hearing that (e.g.) scythe makers in the Abbeydale estate near Sheffield rarely made it past 35.

That's why there's only one Father Christmas to however many elves.

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Yet again S-O-D has hit the nail on the head. No point in turning out stuff which no-0ne can afford.

How many of you guy could afford their lathes ? Even dealing with the type of customers they do, they still face serious competition from the Far East, so they will never be too interested in the market at our level.

Nice to see how these things were made, but it,s a bit of old hat now.

You cannot step in the same stream twice.

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