Fantastic British engineering

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

The making of the Colchester lathe

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Thought some of you guys would appreciate this video. The making of the Colchester lathes. Amazing & the techniques they had.

Colchester factory

Steve.

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Thanks for posting that Steve, absolutely fascinating, no wonder Colchester spares are expensive, they make them on gold plated machines!

What a shame that we don't produce these lathes in this country any more, makes you realise just how many engineering jobs have gone over the years, so much incredible skill wasted. As an apprentice I had to spend about six months in the inspection department, part of that on Talyrond testers, the first half dozen parts to be tested were interesting, then the rest of the batch of about 2000 turned up, absolutely bored to tears.

Dave

[clogsParticipant @clogs]

Totally agree but as per Usual managment prefer pub lunches than re invest it the product…..

have a little used 6" Sq top Student….(can trace its history from new)….love it……

but then have 3 phase at home…….

Shame is u can import "broom sticks" from China and make more money via eBay…….!!!!!!!

[AdrianRParticipant @adrianr18614]

I saw this a couple of days ago. I so wished for a time machine to go back to those days. I feel I was born in the wrong generation.

I would love to have an as new student.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Dave Wootton on 22/04/2020 06:20:06:

…

What a shame that we don't produce these lathes in this country any more, makes you realise just how many engineering jobs have gone over the years, so much incredible skill wasted. …

Dave

Is it a shame? Why? Beware nostalgia, taken neat it causes delusions!

In manufacturing you have to make stuff people want to buy and it has to be made at a profit. No point making the best tool in the world if it requires so much skill that no-one can afford it. Or it has to be sold as a loss leader. Doubly no point in making the best manual machine tools in the world when 99% of customers have shifted to multi-axis CNC.

Old fashioned engineering is commercial suicide! Yesterday's technology is highly vulnerable to anyone using better methods and to anyone who can do the same job with lower labour or material costs. Bad mistake to think skills are valuable in their own right, however hard-earned, or that they are irreplaceable. Feeding the children tomorrow is far more important than old achievements, however impressive they were.

Rather than tie up manpower in low-value jobs that can be automated or out-sourced, it's arguably better to shut the enterprise down and re-use the labour for anything else that makes more money. No point in being a Saggarmaker's bottom knocker unless there's an unmechanised Pottery Industry to work in; better to be a hairdresser than an unemployed telegrapher.

My career was in Information Technology where the rate of change is ferocious. I started as a COBOL Programmer which was once the most popular computer language in the world, loads of jobs. Today, it's not in the top 20. My COBOL skills became redundant over 40 years ago, and I had to learn new tricks urgently. Even though I was good at it, I don't think the world misses my COBOL programming skills at all.

Time marches on!

Dave

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

As hobbyists, most of us (Handle twirlers ) use basically the same technology as century or more ago.

CNC uses the same BASIC processes, but with the bonus of superior materials and computer control, so what takes me an hour, comes off a modern machine in minutes, and much more consistently.

An ex industry machine, that is is in good condition, but seventy years old (if those are not compatible&nbsp will produce accurate work, given operator skill. But it will not be able to make best use of modern tooling and materials.

In 1958 a Herbert No 7 Preoptive was state of the art, but is an absolute snail compared to a modern CNC machining centre.

Rose tinted spectacles do fade.

Howard

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Watching that makes me realise how many processes the Chinese have deleted to get down to the price point that we will pay.

[Darren WebbParticipant @darrenwebb57710]

Great watch, agree with the sentiment about parts made on gold plated machines, parts for my Triumph 2000 cost a fortune, glad nothing broken on it. Wish it was as shiny though.

Darren

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by Dave Halford on 22/04/2020 14:19:50:

Watching that makes me realise how many processes the Chinese have deleted to get down to the price point that we will pay.

Deburring & counterboring with the right cutter to name but 2, I paid £3.3K for my 'not half bad' Warco lathe , I personally would have paid another £500 for a better finished product.

Tony

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Yes – interesting to watch. But unfortunately you can see the seeds of the loss of much of our engineering industry in the persistent use of skilled and labour-intensive techniques requiring relatively highly-paid personnel. Part of this stems from the retention of once-successful designs that had their heyday in a period when skilled labour was more abundant and less expensive.

Economies like those of the Far East have access to a skilled and aspirational labour force at lower cost, and take a heavily value-engineered approach to design, so they win both ways. It's a breathtakingly huge pity that so many successive British governments have not made any material difference to this process. Some have actually encouraged it – covertly, by neglect.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Henry Ford showed the way with the Model T – an unskilled low payed workforce following the monkey see monkey do system. Heavily refined during the war

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Is it a shame? Why? Beware nostalgia, taken neat it causes delusions

To S.O.D I made no mention of nostalgia ,or nostalgic sentiments in my post, I served my time in a very similar industry it was a hard environment, but it provided reasonably paid jobs to a great many people, skilled and unskilled. I personally wouldn't want to go back to those days.

But I do believe that it is a shame that so many companies that were large scale employers have closed, for whatever reason, a large scale concern such as Colchester's has a great impact on employment in it's surrounding area.

A great many people do not have the skills or ability to become computer programmers, or to work in hi tech industries, but they were perfectly able to hold down a reasonably skilled job in manufacturing. It is them that I feel sorry for in the workplace today.

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 22/04/2020 13:56:50:

Even though I was good at it, I don't think the world misses my COBOL programming skills at all.

Parts of it might – nearly all of the UK government's benefit systems still run on COBOL, and they are actively looking for people with those skills if you fancy coming out of retirement.

Rob

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Sadly, I fear that for many years the Civil Service has been filled with folk lacking any knowledge of, or respect for, Engineering and Manufacturing. Hence it is seen as being of little value; so shift it abroad.

The error of that is now visible, in the form of official inability / unwillingness to manufacture PPE.

Meanwhile, the need is being met by Engineers and engineering companies who are making their contribution and supplying direct to where it is needed.. One our Forum members started making face masks with his 3D printer, for his local hospital, a couple of weeks ago!

Fiddling in Whitehall while Rome burns?

Howard

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

It's a given that technology marches on. This you cannot change. Rather than trying to get protectionist the challenge is to make the social changes required to adapt to the changing landscape of work and employment, A case of adapt or die. There is only a certain amount that govenments can do to soften the impact. The major effort should always be in continually finding new industries and retraining populations. Probably the worst thing you could do would be to artificially sustain industies beyond their sell by date except for the purposes of buying time whilst other alternative are developed.

regards Martin

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

You can't get away from the fact that for a multitude of reasons 'stuff' is cheaper to make in the far East/China/Turkey etc.etc..

Tony

Edited By Tony Pratt 1 on 22/04/2020 21:02:48

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

So what we need to do is make stuff at the high tech end which they don't make in cheap labour markets. I get the impression that we are doing a fair bit of this, but the long standing problem in this country is poor productivity, caused by lack of skilled workers and lack of investment in equipment, I suppose the 2 go together. If I knew how to get out of this I'd not be sat here contributing to ME forum!

If we upskill our workforce they will get paid more, won't need in work benefits, will pay more tax, and round it goes, we are all better off

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[Stuart BridgerParticipant @stuartbridger82290]

I don't know if it is the same around the country, but near me in Oxfordshire, there are a surprising number of small CNC shops, tucked away in small indstrial units. The technology and automation means that they are not big employers though. They typically have a small number of very expensive machining centres, that they just setup and run. Often overnight, completely unattended, getting a message on their phone if an alarm is flagged. They are very much supporting the higher technology industries.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 22/04/2020 15:12:14:

I paid £3.3K for my 'not half bad' Warco lathe , I personally would have paid another £500 for a better finished product.

Indeed. We often see how someone has improved their import machine with a few hours work. It is a pity nobody gets that work done at source with cheaper labour but we all know that after a few weeks both the mfr ande the UK accountant would look at eh profit to be made on skimping on first this process, then another…..

As Duncan says we can have high tech UK firms. Remember what happened to Churchill lathes.

The film initially linked I think shows the effort put into the Gammet bearings. This was the key feature of the Colchester lathes. When you buy a second hand one with knackered bearings you have just got a regular far eastern lathe unless you can afford new bearings.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by duncan webster on 22/04/2020 21:21:31:

So what we need to do is make stuff at the high tech end which they don't make in cheap labour markets. I get the impression that we are doing a fair bit of this, but the long standing problem in this country is poor productivity, caused by lack of skilled workers and lack of investment in equipment, I suppose the 2 go together. If I knew how to get out of this I'd not be sat here contributing to ME forum!

If we upskill our workforce they will get paid more, won't need in work benefits, will pay more tax, and round it goes, we are all better off

Well, yes, but you don't get to work on the top-end stuff without doing the basics as well!

You can't just be the engine driver without having done your stint as fireman, cleaner and everything else as well. To be effective at the command end you have to know every job from the bottom up. So I doubt that the market segregation you're suggesting can actually be achieved.

For every person you've got assembling space probes in a lab, you gotta have several building aircraft, instruments and machine tools, and tens or hundreds assembling vacuum cleaners or the like in factories. That's the only way you can develop and retain the full range of capability in the workforce.

Sure, there are examples of successful small high-tech companies – my son is with one – but the story in Britain has been one of endless, slow shrinkage throughout my adult life, and I fear that without serious political and cultural support, that'll just go on until there's nothing left.

To some extent, I blame the empty-headed celeb culture we seem to have, but that didn't come from nowhere.

Edited By Mick B1 on 23/04/2020 09:07:44

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

caused by lack of skilled workers and lack of investment in equipment, I suppose the 2 go together.

Many employers don't want to pay to train skilled people, they would rather employ a skilled person someone else has paid to train. Attempts to raise the training bar through a "Training levy" don't seem to be delivering the desired results – "Modern apprenticeships" are nothing like the type I did in the late '70s & my older collegues thought that was "dumbed down" compared to their 7 year training. My current Polish collegues have had a far more thorough training that most UK schemes can provide. We won't improve until we rethink general education to provide 16-18 year olds who are basically numerate & literate to a standard high enough to be able to be readily trained to suit the needs of industry & commerce.

Some of the garishly gold painted machines looked rather old even then – the general condition of the castings of the Ingersol horizontal milling machine milling the bed formation suggested to me that it was "War Finish" – the film was made early '60s by the look of the vehicles ?

The general process shown in the film was much like Boxford & Broadbent in the early '80s. No real change, no attempts to re-design to keep costs competitive. Neither make manual machines any more.

Nigel B.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

In the good old days, Britain was dominated by hard to miss collieries, slag-heaps, railway sidings, and smoke-stack industries.

And labour intensive factory floors like this:

11 men in this photo, all operating machines you might find in a home workshop apart from Father Christmas, bottom right. Anyone know what he's doing or what his machine is?

Although smoke-stack industries and yesteryear machine shops both employed hoards of people, their output was low and not very profitable. As a way of making a living, these methods become ever more precarious as time passes. From a financial point of view it's better to dump such methods as soon as they become uncompetitive. This happens as soon as someone else comes up with a better process (more modern equipment), cheaper labour, or raw-materials.

Actually, although the forum perceive British industry to be wasting away, it's only true in relative terms. Despite closure of high visibility industries like textiles, shipbuilding, steel, mining, heavy chemicals, railways, and heavy engineering, tt's as profitable today as it ever was. It's changed, adapted and moved, not failed. CNC and robotics have had a devastating impact on manufacturing jobs, and the new world is far less obvious, quite likely operating from an anonymous shed in a business park:

Changing methods have altered what's needed from the work-force. In the UK (and West generally), the need today is for designers rather than practical men. Designers will typically have professional qualifications and a good understanding of materials and modern methods. They understand Computer Aided Engineering, FEM analysis, Fluid analysis, Dynamics, Event Modelling, simulations, modelling, electronics, power, and are aware of current trends such as Generative Design. They are trained to collaborate with other specialists, have access to information galore and, of course, they can do the maths. These chaps don't need shop-floor experience, it's more important they can do value-engineering – 'an engineer is a man who does for a pound what any fool can do for a guinea'

Given automation, it's become possible to manufacture almost anywhere in the world. Traditional skills don't matter much, new skills do. Cost determines where work is done, not past triumphs.

In short British engineering has shifted from doing to thinking. There's more money in designing and owning the rights to a smart phone than actually making them, and there's no risk you might end up owning an obsolete smart phone factory!

There is of course a down side. Overall we all may be richer, but it's socially bad to deny people a living. The old ways may have ended up becoming inefficient, but they provided lots of job satisfaction. No-one is immune. At the moment the sun shines on China, but manufacturing there is subject to the same forces. Chinese success depends hugely on cheap air freight and especially on cheap containerised shipping. This is likely to end as soon as oil starts to run out. They're also vulnerable to a drop in demand, much as unemployment in Glasgow rose to over 80% just after WW1 because of low demand for heavy engineering. Who knows what Coranavirus will do to world trade?

Dave

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

These chaps don't need shop-floor experience,

I would suggest that, in reality, they do.

If they had such experience, it would cut down on the number of "unmakable" part drawings that come in for quotation – great CAD work, but with features that cannot be machined & un-workable tolerances. Not to mention the parts that prove not to be assembleable if they do get made – another "old adage" that went back to drawing office days was "any fool can tighten a bolt with a pencil" – still holds true with CAD.

Nigel B.

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