Excellent Chinese Chuck

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

So cheap I thought it was a scam!

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

The Sino-phobes aren't going to like this post, sorry!

Whilst undertaking a certain task I began to muse how much easier it would have been if I only had a 4-jaw self-centring chuck for my Colchester Student. At a lose end, and purely out of curiosity, I started to search online for one expecting it to be way out of my price range when a new 8" (200mm) chuck came up for £108! Nah!, it's got to be a scam, someone's hacked an eBay advertiser, I have had it before when looking for a Makita drill. The make was San Ou so obviously Chinese. I had never heard of them before but started searching for reports and reviews and looked at the company website. Not much to be found really, some debate in this very forum a couple of years ago and a YouTube video of somebody in the USA having to correct an in-accuracy in a 4-jaw independent he had purchased. The reviews were around 50/50 either way to be fair, but in any event you don't get an 8" 4-jaw self centring chuck for £108 delivered do you? Of course you don't!

But something kept eating at me to call the scammer's bluff. PayPal and eBay had protected me well enough over the Makita drill hadn't they? And whilst no one wants to be conned out of over £100, even if I lost it I would not starve to death and it would just prove to myself what a fool I really was for allowing myself to be duped. So I took the plunge and clicked the 'Buy it Now' button. The order and Paypal receipt emails duly arrived indicating that the item and delivery from within the UK actually cost £90 plus £18 VAT. Expecting an email from eBay or PayPal withdrawing the purchase because it was not genuine I was astounded when another email arrived later in the day indicating that the item had been dispatched and supplied a Yodel tracking number. What? Is this genuine after all? Apparently it was.

Imagine my surprise when a package that I could hardly lift arrived by courier within three working days of placing the order. OK, so what's inside? Err….. this actually looks like a decent piece of kit, complete with a set of outside jaws, a substantial chuck-key and mounting screws, it will need a suitable back-plate of course but I'll worry about that later. For now, let's just put it on the bench, take it apart and look for all the faulty manufacturing that some people keep telling me is a sure sign of cheap Chinese crap which is an utter waste of money. Well now, everything looks to have a nicely ground finish, there doesn't appear to be any slop in the jaws so let's take it apart and look at the scroll It's got to be bad even though it does feel quite smooth when un-winding the jaws, the Sino-phobes have got to be right sometimes, haven't they? Jaws out, back removed, scroll pinions out which looked to have close fitting finely ground journals and the gear of the scroll looked nicely cut, plus there was no slop on the hub on which it mounts. Scroll out and quite unbelievably it looks very nicely machined indeed. So let's clean everything in petrol, lubricate it with H32 and put it all back together.

Now let's find a back-plate. Good Grief! An L.0 fitting is going to cost almost double the chuck from the usual suppliers. Ebay to the rescue again when I won an auction with fifty quid for a fitting that would require an interstitial plate making but would fill the bill. Made a suitable plate and turned everything true in the lathe in which it was to be used including a close fitting register for the chuck taking a great deal of trouble along the way. Mounted the chuck and put a ground 0.625" bar in it to be clocked for concentricity. Moment of truth, this thing's going to be way out just like that guy's in the US and a bit of tool-post grinding will be required to true it up. But wait, should I have gone to Spec-savers or is that clock needle really only moving 0.75 thou. near the chuck jaws with the lathe running slowly. Move the clock a bit further along the test bar and let's see that needle really start to swing. No, it moves about 1.5 thou. 12" out from the jaws. That'll do, as they say in Yorkshire!

Delighted? Jumping for joy more like! I still cannot believe I only paid £108 for this obviously well made and accurate piece of kit and just proves that price isn't a measure of quality.

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

I also bought one some years ago.. seem to remember it was only 80 or so

and just as you its excellent and is my everyday fitted chuck

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

One of the chucks at the museum is a Huhhot Chinese 125mm which is very good indeed, it dates from 2003, I still have the test certificate. The Chinese four jaw independent 160mm which I bought for the museum was only £50 and it works, but the jaw fits are rather loose. I bought a couple of the Sanou chucks for my 7 X 12 Warco mini lathe, an 80mm three jaw scroll, and a 100mm four jaw independent. The 100mm had to be modified to fit the spindle. They are both superior to the original chucks for the lathe.

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

I bought a six-jaw Sanou chuck last year. It was probably from the same UK seller as yours Chris, by the sound of it. I was originally attracted by the price, too – £99 inclusive of VAT and delivery. Its only downside is that it will not grip very small or very large diameter workpieces, for which I swap it out for either a 3- or 4-jaw, but nevertheless spends 99% of the time mounted on my lathe. Can't fault the finish or accuracy within the limits of my measuring equipment.

John

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Sanou will also supply there chucks with the suppliers logo on them if the order is sufficient and can usually be spotted as they still have the K**-###* serial number so if you want to stick with your favourite supplier take a closer look.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I purchased a Sanou 3 jaw 4" chuck recently ( I think it was from Arc, had their logo but a Sanou number) I cannot fault it at all. Brilliant quality, irrespective of the low price.

I believe that Sanou have upped their quality standards over the last year or two. I would not bother looking elsewhere for a new chuck.

Andrew.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

It's unfortunate that (unless anyone knows better) that they don't seem to supply outside jaws with the 6 jaw chucks.
They seem to be listed in the catalogue(s) but I've still to find a stockist with them.

Bill

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Posted by peak4 on 27/03/2021 19:30:48:

It's unfortunate that (unless anyone knows better) that they don't seem to supply outside jaws with the 6 jaw chucks.
They seem to be listed in the catalogue(s) but I've still to find a stockist with them.

Bill

That is what tends to put me off buying one as well. In the USA, you can get the model with the two piece reversable jaws, I was shown a picture on the Home Shop Machinist forum.

Edited By old mart on 27/03/2021 19:47:16

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

sanou seem to be flavour of the month at the moment. They supplied all the keyless chucks on Aldi Scheppach and Lidl bench drills recently

Runout wasn't particularly brilliant but they are nice solid bits of kit that do the job

They may have connections with and be doing work for Rohm

[Colin DParticipant @colind]

Useful information, thanks for taking the time to post this Chris, appreciated, Colin.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I don’t think it makes much difference which chinese chuck (vise, RT – or any other item, for that matter) one might require – it is far more important to purchase from a reliable source, not a fly-by-night seller or a cheap chinese source that often sells second or third quality (some being basically manufacturer rejects! ).

One needs to buy from somewhere that will stand by the specs and accept returns if the item turns out to be NBG.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Before I duck down and take cover below the parapet, could any of you gentlemen who are satisfied with these chucks and praise them for quality and finish tell me if the jaws are hardened or not.

Being a sceptic, I find it hard to believe they are.

Regards

Brian

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

I've been bangin' on about the good quality of the chuck that cam with my Warco WM250V for ages now. These jaws are hard.

This is after 5 years' frequent use:-

https://youtu.be/2tV0-IYV2p8

I'm so scared of trapping a bit of dust or tiny swarf splinter in the register that I'm very unwilling to put up the 4-jaw unless I absolutely have to….

 

Edited By Mick B1 on 28/03/2021 11:29:38

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Posted by Brian Wood on 28/03/2021 10:16:23:

Before I duck down and take cover below the parapet, could any of you gentlemen who are satisfied with these chucks and praise them for quality and finish tell me if the jaws are hardened or not.

Being a sceptic, I find it hard to believe they are.

Regards

Brian

Brian,

I've just nipped out to the workshop and tried a file on my six-jaw chuck. Result: the file skids off without leaving a mark, I'm relieved to say. So, my assumption is that, yes, they are hardened, or at least, mine are.

John

You can come out from beneath the parapet now.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Isn't the 6 jaw intended for grinder applications?

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Excuse me for asking a stupid question, but what is the advantage of a 6 jaw chuck over the usual 3or 4 jaw ?

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Posted by Dave Halford on 28/03/2021 11:48:35:

Isn't the 6 jaw intended for grinder applications?

My understanding is that six-jaw chucks are more suitable for holding thin-walled tube, having less crushing force applied per jaw for a given grip. That's not what I got it for, though. I just thought it looked pretty cool, to use the modern idiom, and it holds the size of material that I generally use and hopefully more accurately. But then I didn't know any better. Like I've said before in many posts, I'm not a trained engineer, just a bloke who potters about in a "shed". "Playing" my wife says.

John

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Hello Brother John ! Me too !

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Brian Wood on 28/03/2021 10:16:23:

Before I duck down and take cover below the parapet, could any of you gentlemen who are satisfied with these chucks and praise them for quality and finish tell me if the jaws are hardened or not.

Being a sceptic, I find it hard to believe they are.

Regards

Brian

Never knowingly seen a Sanou chuck, but all my Far Eastern jaws are hardened.

Asking what might be wrong with inexpensive tools is worth doing though. I generally buy mid-range, which seems to get me tools that work, but which adjust crudely with OK accuracy that's a little untrustworthy, and a suspicion they are likely to wear faster than the expensive equivalent. Only time will tell, but so far I am ageing faster than my tools!

With a few exceptions, my experience of mid-range tools is they're usually 'good enough' for what I do, and buying 'better' isn't worth it. In my workshop it's not worth buying second-hand premium brand tools, or new ones. Worn out tools are low quality, whoever made them, and I manage perfectly well without spending big money on new high-end gear. (I am a hobbyist, not a production workshop, and that makes a huge difference.)

Another good question is 'how difficult is it to make a decent chuck?' My answer would be 'not difficult at all'. The designs are all patent expired and there are no trade-secrets. The metal is nothing special, and above all manufacturing relies much less on skilled labour : it hasn't been necessary to serve an apprenticeship to make chucks for at least 50 years.

Believing foreigners can't possibly make things as well as the Brits has been a problem for us since about 1870. The truth is they can and do. To my mind believing they can't is extremely unwise, because failing to compete leads directly to an a*se-whupping. Britain's industrial history is full of examples: American Machine Tools, German engineering, and Japanese electronics, motorbikes and cars have all been dismissed bt Brits on quality grounds, only to find the competition pinched all our customers.

Sad truth is what we do next matters far more than fly-blown past certainties. If industry is to compete, it can't afford to be bogged down by prejudices of any kind.

To me, that low-value tat originates in Asia is of far less concern than the Chinese policies currently set to trigger a full trade-war with the USA, EU and UK. Unless it's sorted out, Chinese goods might become more expensive later this year. China appear confident they don't need the West because they are a key member of the recently created Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, which covers about 30% of the World's economic output, and more if India joins later. RCEP includes Japan, New Zealand, Australia, South Korea, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia and other members of the ASEAN trade group. RCEP is similar to the EU, except it doesn't insist on a level playing field between member states.

Interesting times…

Dave

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

I have two Sanou chucks supplied with my little Warco lathe (WM180) and was surprised by their quality when they arrived…. The only 'con' for me is that the jaws are not only very hard but also 'as machined' with very sharp serrations…they easily damage work pieces unless you are prepared. I have made copper jaw covers for my 4-jaw and use a collection of copper split tubes for the 3-jaw, which I don't use very often as i usually use 4 Jaw or excellent collet chuck also made by Sanou. The Warco supplied chucks have the name Feurdo but are facsimile and bear same model numbers etc.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Thank you John, Dave and Bob for your informative replies, I am still astounded that decent chucks can be supplied at those prices. Chris Crew who started this post bought his chuck for £108 of which £18 was for delivery.

Bear in mind this was for a four jaw self centreing chuck of 8 inch diameter and like him I asked myself how could it be made and distributed at that sort of cost. Just buying an 8 inch lump of cast iron of a size sufficient to make it would set me back about the same without even making a hole in it .

I am all chucked out for the time being but I will remember this information when I come to buy a new chuck

Interesting times indeed as Dave observed

Brian

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

If you read Joseph Nochi’s (who’s views I respect) experience on this forum about Sanou Chuck which he purchased via a marketplace platform a few years ago, they were less than complementary.

So, in early 2019 a decision was made to visit the factory to see for our selves. My wife and I on behalf of ARC, along with representatives of two other organisations who purchase lathe chucks for various customers around the world, went for days meeting.

SANOU is a well organised family run business with two brothers at the head. They are an extremely alert pair. Both have their figure on the pulse in terms of engineering, finance, marketing and most importantly politics (subject in which they take strong national pride).

As a result, they will produce whatever the customer wants, at whatever price level, provided large MOQs are provided. They do not keep any stock, working on a 'just in time' system. The level of advanced automation is one of the best I have seen. Their major production mostly for larger size chucks is made of consumption within China. Overruns or rejects sold off to whoever wants them.

The quality is very much dependant on what the customer wants to pay for the price. So, you will see different grades of the same product in different market places around the world, all with the SANOU mark.

ARC purchases the quality it is happy with, at the price it pays to its manufacturing supplier. At present, the supplier for its Chinese origin lathe chucks is SANOU. We pay a premium for our branded product for a specific specification, along with the two other organisations as mentioned above.

– Technically, the K**-###* mentioned by Jason above, refers to a standard Chinese numbering system. This is what is supposed to be used by ALL Chinese lathe chuck manufacturers for a given size/type, originally established in the old Russian collaboration days.
– Around four to five factories were established by the communist state in four corners of China, led by Huhhot and Yantai – the original set-ups, followed by their engineers being sent to the other corners on the country to establish lathe chuck factories following the same systems.

Now a days, although the numbering system remains, several lathe chuck founding factories have collapsed, either financially or politically, leading to new set-ups rising from the ashes. One always has to keep an eye on these lathe chuck factories, as it is difficult to be sure about when changes will take place.

Keeping all of the above issues in mind, ARC made a decision to sell Chinese origin lathe chucks in its own brand. We don't know if and when we have to change the manufacturing supplier, but at present we are happy and grateful with SANOUs ability to supply us what we need. We will not supply lathe chucks under the SANOU brand as far as possible (unless we have no choice), because we are aware of the different grades available, especially for the smaller sized chucks, all of which carry the SANOU brand.

Ady1: Keyless drill chucks are a very good example of after market product which ARC buys from a different source other than SANOU. The quality for this product from SANOU fails to meet our needs. There are sub-contract factories to SANOU for this product range, branded SANOU, but outside of their QC, because the price paid to them for this product is seriously low for them to consider production in-house. Having said this, many machine manufacturers will use such drill chucks as well as key type chucks procured through SANOU directly or through wholesalers. Price paid by ARC for keyless chucks from another location in China is far higher than the offering from SANOU. Similarly, back in 2019, I am aware that ROHM procured its components for such products from elsewhere.

Bob Stevenson: Fuerda is a different factory from SANOU, based in a different location.

SOD Dave: After visiting the state of the art SANOU factory, I would suggest it is difficult to make decent chucks. I have visited several lathe chuck factories in China as well as in India. Yes, I would agree that there is a high level of politics, especially associated with this factory, and for this reason it always helps to be friendly with more than one maker, for reasons stated above . As far as the Chinese and Indians are concerned, they are both extremely focused on their own national pride, with a healthy measure of sabrer-rattling at each other. Whilst is is very true that the current generation on Chinese and Indians are extremely confident of their own abilities – rightly as well as wrongly, probability of India entering into a 'REAL' healthy relationship with China at present are low.

Even though SANOU sends a high volume of variable grade chucks to India, the demand for locally produced chucks within India is far higher, mainly due to national pride, and SANOU has a very small market share.

Ketan at ARC

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 28/03/2021 12:20:34:…

…To me, that low-value tat originates in Asia is of far less concern than the Chinese policies currently set to trigger a full trade-war with the USA, EU and UK. Unless it's sorted out, Chinese goods might become more expensive later this year. China appear confident they don't need the West because they are a key member of the recently created Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, which covers about 30% of the World's economic output, and more if India joins later. RCEP includes Japan, New Zealand, Australia, South Korea, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia and other members of the ASEAN trade group. RCEP is similar to the EU, except it doesn't insist on a level playing field between member states.

Interesting times…

Dave

I dont think you need to worry too much about RCEP, which nobody in Australia has even heard of yet. It is a free trade agreement, yet to be ratified, not a full-on economic organisation and bloc like the EU. And China will do what it wants regardless of any treaty, as it has fully demonstrated.

Probably unreported in the UK, but China has been waging a one-way trade war against Australia since our government's call six to 12 months ago for a full and open investigation into the Wuhan Covid 19 outbreak. China has used various excuse to stop importing Australian coal, iron ore, food, grain, meat, fish, wine etc. The matter is on the verge of going to the WTO for arbitration as it defies various existing agreements etc.

So far, no slow down on Chinese consumer goods, tat or quality, coming into the country and no price rises. And Australian industries are finding new markets for their exports in places like India and UK. So life goes on.

Main result has been an increased questioning of the ethics of doing business at all with countries with appalling human rights abuses ongoing.

We live in interesting times indeed.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Ketan: Thanks for the inside view of the industry. Always interesting to hear what goes on behind the scenes.

[Author]

Posts