ER Collet Chuck.

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

Morning again! (full of questions me)

I’m looking for a replacement 3MT ER32 collet chuck, the one I have came from Arc Euro but that was when I first bought the mill about 2 years ago but was unable to use it as per the rebuild thread so didn’t realise what it’s issues were otherwise I’m sure they would have swapped it out. Nothing wrong with Arc Euro, I have some great stuff from them (and just got a nice set of parallels for Xmas! 😁), just one of those things.

Unfortunately there is significant run out (around 50 microns) vs my spindle which only vibrated the indicator needle when rotated. the draw bar thread is at such an angle to the vertical that I can not use my self ejecting draw bar.

Does anyone have any experience of the Omega products of the Bison?

If so, I’m considering one of either –

Omega MT3 ER32

Bison MT3 ER32

If anyone has any views?

Cheers 🍻

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

Omega re badge stuff from all over the world, quality is usually good but it’s probably no better than cheaper options from ARC, Warco etc.

Bison stuff is made in Poland, the quality is usually excellent!

Of the two you listed I’d definitely go for the Bison.

If you want even better, you would have to look at Rego-Fix, Kennametal, Erickson etc.

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Is the runout consistent or does it vary with the position of the Morse taper in the spindle? Have you tried bluing the taper to check for any bruising? Have you checked the runout with other things that you fit in the spindle? Morse tapers are easily bruised and some bruises are not easy to spot with feel or sight so I would check these things first. Checking the mouth of the spindle is only checking the mouth of the spindle and there may be some problem deep inside.

Martin C

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

Cutwel do an MT3 Er32 collet chcuk, but at around £96 inc Vat delivered it is a bit pricey.

Good quality stuff, though – used them at work (mainly ER extension chucks to get longer reach into deep pockets) with no run-out problems.

Nigel B.

 

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

To me this is about cost vs reliability.

If saving money has priority, then buy hobby level unbranded products.  I don’t spend money on tools for peace of mind reasons, or as an investment.  One way hobby products keep cost down is by cutting inspections, which means that some percentage will come out of the factory in poor condition.   The customer is the final inspector, so it’s important to check immediately.  When a new product is found wanting, contact the supplier,  who, for reputational and legal reasons, should replace or refund.

If reliability has priority, and money is no object, then buy industrial.   Judging by price and who sells them the Omega and Bison chucks identified by Taf are both low-end industrial.

I think Omega are a rebrand operation. Doesn’t worry me much because outsourcing is extremely common.   Bison, do, or did, manufacture their own stuff.    As far as I know Bison are a ‘good make’, and Omega are careful about what they sell.

I usually buy mid-range tools from UK based suppliers.   Though I wouldn’t want to overstate it, internet purchases, especially from abroad, are risky for several reasons and, if it goes wrong, expect some bovver. Ebay, Amazon and PayPal all help manage the financial risk.     I only go upmarket when I have a specific need, and when doing so I’m careful not to waste money polishing a turd!  The run-out of my Chinese Mill is determined by its spindle, bearings, and rigidity.  There’s no point in me fitting a sooper-dooper collet chuck to it!

Taf is different to me.  His Chester improvements make it more likely fitting a well-made chuck will pay off.   As the Omega and Bison are less than £70, why not?  BUT! if Taf’s done a really good job, low-end industrial might not be ‘good enough’.

🙂

Dave

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

I look at it a bit differently. Each time you add something to the spindle. (Collet chuck – collet – cutter) You add a a bit more runout.

Obviously if you use cheap stuff at all points you could end up with a total runout that is quite poor.

If you can minimise this with better quality tooling,  you will reduce machine wear, cutter wear and generally be more accurate overall.

That said, I guess it also depends on what you make and how accurate you NEED to be.

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

The Bison are only a few quid more than a similar chuck from a UK hobby supplier, they come with an internal cutter back-stop, and the collets drop in and out of the nut easily, even if ‘loaded’ – which means you can have a ‘queue’ of loaded tooling ready to swap.

I have a 2mt and 3mt. Like them a lot.

Agree with Hollow point, it’s about incrementally ‘stacking the odds in your favour’..

 

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

Thanks folks, some excellent points there.

Dave has summed it up pretty well (as usual!) and as Hollowpoint stated, each bit of the ‘stack’ increases the error.

I have just been back up the workshop, cleaned and re measured everything (After Martin C sewed the seed of doubt!) and regardless of where I measure the spindle taper the run out is the same.. or should I say lack of it – just needle vibration. I swept it gradually from the opening to as far up as the indicator would reach which was only a few mil from the taper end. There are a couple of small marks but I have checked them with my MT3 test bar blued up and there are no ‘high’ spots – good news as I did fettle that when I had it apart. The test bar gives a full even blue transfer. There is no run out on the test bat when inserted.

Anyway, I must point out that this is in no way a ‘dig’ at Arc, everything I have had from them has been far better quality than I was expecting, especially for the price point, I think they are great. It is purely my fault for not checking it when I got it 2 years ago and I certainly would not entertain asking them for anything after 2 years, that is taking the .. well, you know!

I think the fact that the Bison is currently on offer making it not much more than the Omega I will go for that if I can shift a couple of bits in the next day or 2. I cant spend any more than that and I think it is a good compromise between affordability and quality and I’m sure it will be far better than the squishy bit operating the thing!.

 

Thanks for all the feedback!

Cheers, Taf.

[PeteParticipant @pete41194]

I sure don’t know where the assumption came from anyone that Bison ER collet chucks are “low-end industrial” at all. In fact I’ve yet to ever read a single complaint about any of there products including posts by professional machinist’s. Bison lathe chucks to name just one of the items they produce are highly regarded world wide and well worth what they cost. My own BP clones spindle taper is comparable to what yours seems to be Taf, barely a flicker with a 10ths dti. And the full set of Bison ER-40 collets and R8 collet chuck I bought weren’t far behind in price for the same from Rego-Fix. Every standard grade collet I’ve checked was at most maybe 2-3 10ths out, and well under there guarantee of less than .0005″.

It would be illogical to use any cheap, poorly made collet chuck if your spindle is already that good. I’m not about to pay anything for tooling that’s going to introduce multiple times the run out of what I have right now just because it was cheap. My own collet chuck shows both the male and female threads and it’s extraction cam were properly ground after heat treatment, and it all fits together and works extremely well. I also think I paid for and got exactly what I was expecting for the price, and would certainly buy the same again. I’d also say the same about the full set of their R-8 end mill holders I bought as well. In my opinion, Bison produces extremely accurate, durable and without question the upper end for quality and accuracy of industrial rated tooling.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Have you thought of just buying a set of MT3 finger collets?  Only one interface to add runout and save at least 50mm daylight under the spindle, and more rigid. Probably cheaper too.

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

The best option is to make your own. A bit of work but well worth it. Depending on how big the through bore of your lathe chuck is.

You make the MT3 with the drilled and tapped hole, plus have a 30deg/side taper. Mount it into the mill, and mount a lathe tool in a vice or angle plate. Trim the outside section as a reference. Then set up and turn the ER32 thread and 8 deg taper.

As long as the radial orientation is correct or marked in some way, will be the most concentric ER32 collet holder for your spindle. The other option is to recut the taper by inclining the head of the mill. If a fixed head , then it becomes more complicated.

Neil

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

Thanks folks, I ordered the Bison one later this afternoon.

I’ll report back here when I get it.

Cheers again for all the replies, it’s great to get everyone’s opinion regardless of what it is, every one is valid!

[Taf_Pembs]

On Taf_Pembs Said:

Thanks folks, I ordered the Bison one later this afternoon.

I’ll report back here when I get it.

Cheers again for all the replies, it’s great to get everyone’s opinion regardless of what it is, every one is valid!

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Good choice!

Bison doesn’t make crap, so I’d be amazed if you weren’t happy. I’ve certainly never been disappointed with their stuff. 👍

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