Engineering tuition recommendations

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

I'm trying to find manual machine tool tuition. Aimed at a serious hobbyist who is bereft of any formal training. I'm keen to acquire a range of skills, over time of course, from a very competent engineer (who's ideally undertaken rigorous training in the form of a traditional apprenticeship). I've now decided I won't be satisfied continuing to self-teaching bits from books and youtube videos.

Surprisingly I'm struglging to find any sort of night school courses at local colleges, even within a 2hr radius. Granted I live in the West Country…

Even those introductory courses Axminster Tools ran down in Devon seem to have been discontinued.

Any suggestions are gratefully received.

Edited By choochoo_baloo on 17/03/2022 19:49:42

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Night classes are a dying breed. Our local collage got rid of its engineering classes years ago. The space is now a trainee hair salon.

I don't see the problem in teaching yourself workshop practice. plenty of books on the subject. I suspect that maybe the majority of forum members are indeed self taught.

Andrew.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

The only training sessions that I know of, are unfortunately no good to you in the west country. I am of course referring to the SMEE courses at their HQ in South London which is OK for anyone living within say a 50 radius. Can only suggest that you continue reading every bit of source material going and don't hesitate to keep on asking questions on this forum, it's there to be used. No question is daft, we've all had to learn at some point. Try joining a club near you, check out their workshop facilities before you join. There is sure to be one or more of the older members with loads of knowledge and experience and be willing to help you. Most clubs seem to have a lathe and drilling machine, so if I was starting, I wouldn't buy them and look for a club that also has a milling machine as well or buy that item first and make use of club lathe and drill. I should like to add that I'm completely self – taught in the use of a mill. Beware bad practices on YouTube like using your hands as brake pads to stop chucks revolving.  Good luck.

 

Edited By DMB on 17/03/2022 20:21:10

[Peter Ellis 5Participant @peterellis5]

Whereabouts in the West Country are you ?

Cheers

Peter

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

Sorry chaps, realised I may have unintentionally set the wrong tone. I meant to say:

I am a great believer in self-teaching etc; have done so in many areas myself. His forum ha been invaluable over the years for my numerous beginner questions. It's because I aspire to tackle some hefty engineering projects in due course e.g. 4" scale traction engine, I would rather gain a good grounding from an experienced machinist to really 'learn the tricks' that no books could ever practically cover in their entirety. I think I'm trying to be realistic(?)

Otherwise it would be many years, large amounts of money on 'learning by experimenting', and most concerning is waning enthusiasm as progress stalls. Death/illness aside, I do see a lot of part finished mod eng projects for sale from the various dealers.

Hopefully that makes more sense?

Edited By choochoo_baloo on 18/03/2022 01:37:43

[GavlarParticipant @gavlar]

I read a recommendation (I can't remember where) for this chap;

http://www.thatlazymachinist.com/free-training.html

He has uploaded 100+ video tutorials, aimed at the beginner.

I cannot personnaly recommend him, at least not yet. I've only watched the first few videos on shop safety but it might be a useful resource.

[Alan CharlestonParticipant @alancharleston78882]

Hi Choochoo,

I bumbled around in my home workshop for a few years without really knowing what I was doing. About 30 years ago I went back to the Tech to do some Chemical Engineering courses. One of them was called Workshop Practice and was hands on instruction from hand filing and scraping to using a lathe, shaper, surface grinder and mill. You didn't need to be doing a certificate or diploma to attend – there was one guy there making a steam engine who only came to use the gear. I learnt a lot of useful stuff.This was in New Zealand.

I don't know where in the West Country you are but I found this establishment in Devon.

Faculty of Engineering

If you can find something similar close to you, then get in touch with them and ask if they run Workshop Practice classes and if they will accept you as a casual student.

Regards,

Alan C.

[Old SchoolParticipant @oldschool]

The other option is to find a mentor who is prepared to share his skills. I have been lucky I have friend who lives 15 minutes away a very skilled engineer who spent his life as an engineer and designer.

You will also find people who are prepared to help in specialist areas of your hobby and share their skills and knowledge.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I've certainly seen some good traction engines made by people with no training even mine were done with just school metal work and reading up so just because you want to make something large does not mean you have to be taught by a trained engineer.

Take this 3" Fowler, the guy did not have an engineering background and had only made an oscillator before tacking on the engine which turned out very well, he did ask a lot of questions though mostly by e-mail so distance does not matter. Mostly done on a Myford and Warco mill with a larger lathe borrowed for the few bigger diameters.

If it's a TE you want then try to register on Traction Talk Forum and spend a month or two reading the detailed build logs there which are far more relevant than many hours of Youtube and will show setups to get things done with the machines that most have in their home workshops for this sort of size project eg M300/Colchester and a Bridgeport

On thing with what few evening type classes that do still run seems that they are more of a way to get to use large machines than to actually teach you how to use them, though you may be able to pick up some tips from those using the facility and the person running it.

As for reading matter you can't go far wrong with Edward Georges "scale model traction engine design & construction" so start searching out a copy. Old ME of Stan Nippers series on the Little Samson is also good reading. Even ythe Minnie book has a lot to offer and many methods can be applied to any scale engine.

Edited By JasonB on 18/03/2022 07:18:55

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

Our Model Engineering Society does sessions that tend to be tailored around the needs of the "students"; I've done some of their hand tool sessions and they were very useful. We are in Westbury, Wiltshire.

West Wiltshire Model Engineering Society

**LINK**

[Peter Ellis 5Participant @peterellis5]

Posted by JasonB on 18/03/2022 07:15:31:

On thing with what few evening type classes that do still run seems that they are more of a way to get to use large machines than to actually teach you how to use them, though you may be able to pick up some tips from those using the facility and the person running it.

That was my experience thirty odd years ago. The upside was that the lecturers had more time to give individual instruction.

The attendee building his 7 1/4" Garrett was quite happy poodling along by himself ! (I often wondered if he ever finished it or how he got it to meetings !)

Cheers

Peter

[David-Clark 1Participant @david-clark1]

Hi there

Split pasting as too long

i am self taught,.

I started reading Model Engineer in the school library at 12 years old, and learnt by reading all the articles.

I did not get a home workshop for many years. With the knowledge learned I started factory work at 15 and was a factory foreman at 18>

The manager was a total twat. He would sit in the office trying to work out how many hand washes we should be getting out of a bar of soap.

So I became foreman because despite having all the papers he did not want to get his hands dirty on the shop floor. He eventually left to start his own engineering consultancy. As far as I could see was his only engineering skill was breaking into his old Rover Car on a weekly basis because because he had looked his keys in again.

When he started as manager he started by clearing the rubbish out of the factory mezzanine floor.

We got all the rubbish outside and burnt it but we also threw loads of swarf on it. This was on a Saturday morning and we clocked out at lunch time. Monday morning he moaned he was stuck there until 7pm Saturday evening because he could not get the fire out.

I went on to self employment as a turret miller a few years later. Never done turret milling before but soon learnt. A turret mill was just a large vertical mill, most commonly a Bridgeport mill. This was over 40 years ago and I was earning £300 ro £400 a week back them, a lot of money.

I next got a job as a CNC miller. I had no idea how to program a CNC mill but the boss said the other miller would teach me programming Monday morning arrived and I was put to work operating the mill. Tuesday the man training me didn’t arrive. He phoned in sick. He had shingles and he was off for 6 weeks with shingles.

The company only had two CNC mills so they gave me the machine manual and said basically get on with it.

On the first day, I broke one drill but I was off. I had an interest in computer programming at the time, still do. So I used to write Quick basic programs that I could convert to Heidenhain, the programming language used by that particular CNC controller maker. I wrote programs that automated the creation of programs to mill a hexagon. Enter the diameter of the cutter and the hexagon AF size and the program would mill the hexagon and move to a safe position and stop. Program resize took about 30 seconds instead of the usual 30 minutes, Another one did flanges where it drilled the 3 holes and milled the profile.

About 6 weeks later my “trainer” came back. He was upset that I had taught myself without him. He left a few weeks later.

Some time later I went for a job as a Fanuc control CNC miller. I did not have a clue how to program in G code. Yes, you’ve guessed it. I taught, myself. I took the manual home overnight, read it, Made a cheat sheat on a floppy disk and a printout and started work

[David-Clark 1Participant @david-clark1]

Continued from previous post

I used that cheat sheet to write a basic program and rewrote it using the works computer to do what I wanted for several years.

I got a job again as a turret miller and they got a large CNC mill in. It was a large Hurco and they employed a CNC programmer for it. He was very nervous and kept making programming mistakes so he was let go.

I was asked to try and program this machine which was very large and had an automatic tool changer. I tried it out even though it was much larger than I was used to. I started by programming it in the X Y axis. I could not do much damage other than hit the bed trips a bit hard.

No problem there. I started on the Z axis slowly but quickly got up and running with no problems, again self taught.

Almost everything I have ever ‘done in engineering has been self taught, Silver soldering, 100 sticks of silver solder a week soon taught me how to do it. Power presses, up to 150 ton, I had to climb up on top about 10 feet in the air to change the stroke, self taught. I have mainly worked as a miller but I did get a job as a turner when I had only worked a capstan lathe but I coped thanks to Model Engineer,

I have a lot to thank Model Engineer for. I started in a factory at £7 a week. I have earned up to £998 a week after tax ibecause of Model Engineer and being self taught.

I offered to edit 16mm Today, the house magazine of the16mm Narrow Gauge Society. After a trial I got the job. This was an unpaid position but was about something I was interested in. Never done editing before, so self taught.

I had already applied to be editor of Model Engineers’ Workshop about 10 years previously but after speaking to Geoff Shepherd, I think, the editor at the time, I did not find follow through because they wanted someone who lived near Hemel Hempstead who could visit the office regularly. Also it was only a part time job.

After editing 16 MM Today for about 18 months Dave Fenner announced he was leaving Model Engineers’ Workshop. I applied and got the job. I could work from home but they wanted someone full time. I took the job despite the pay cut of about £350 a week because I wanted to do it.

I had to edit 10 magazines a year. I edited the first 2 magazines in a fortnight and had nothing to do for the next month

Everything I have ever done has been self taught. I have earned a lot of money and machined a lot of interesting items over the years

One thing stands out in my mind. I saw a lovely photo of a Darjeeling Himalayan tank locomotive on the front cover of Model Engineer. I wondered why it had not been written up and drawings published?

Little did I know that about 40 years later I would be publishing a series about building that engine in Model Engineer.

Thank you Ray McMahon for a dream come true.

Notable moment in Model Engineers’ Workshop, yhe CBC Tool and Cuter Grinder, I think a world first.

So, self taught is good.

Regarding part finished models for sale from dealers. A large locomotive, traction engine or other project will take a very long time and it will cost a lot of money. I have the skills to build a locomotive but would not have the patience to spend several years on a project I would never use. I find the pleasure would be in building the project, not running it when it is finished so I would lose interest once completed.

I will be making some of the smaller Stuart engines, a 10V and a 10H and might have a go at a 16mm locomotive, I quite like the little Pecket or Hundlet saddle tanks but first I want to build “Chuck’s” little gas engine from Model Engineer back in the late 60s early 70s.

So, each to his own but don’t let a lack of formal training put you off, the more you learn, the more you will be capable of. If you don’t have the patience to teach yourself, don’t start a big expensive model. Start small and complete something before moving on.

[JAParticipant @ja]

Posted by Old School on 18/03/2022 06:53:57:

The other option is to find a mentor who is prepared to share his skills. I have been lucky I have friend who lives 15 minutes away a very skilled engineer who spent his life as an engineer and designer.

You will also find people who are prepared to help in specialist areas of your hobby and share their skills and knowledge.

I have always thought of this is a near ideal option. I now wonder if it can be combined with Zoom as a one to one meeting.

JA

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by choochoo_baloo on 18/03/2022 01:36:21:

… I would rather gain a good grounding from an experienced machinist to really 'learn the tricks' that no books could ever practically cover in their entirety. I think I'm trying to be realistic(?)

Otherwise it would be many years, large amounts of money on 'learning by experimenting', and most concerning is waning enthusiasm as progress stalls. …

Hopefully that makes more sense?

…

Makes perfect sense to me, but hard to achieve. Night School classes are long gone and it's unlikely you have the time and money needed to put yourself through an Apprenticeship course. And even if you did, it's likely they teach CAD/CAM and CNC rather than manual skills.

There are short courses on the basics available commercially, like this example, but the curriculum seems to be aimed at getting newcomers started, with an expectation that their employer will take them forward, probably with a mix of on-the-job training and more advanced course-work. Professional training is likely to cover aspects of machining an amateur doesn't need to know, such as drug awareness!

I'm self-taught and all too aware of the disadvantages. Having a mentor would save me a lot of time. I find internet videos valuable, but beware, a high percentage are flawed, probably because they are made by self-taught chaps who don't fully understand what they're doing. Books are better, but it may take me 3 or 4 readings to grip what the author means! The forum is excellent because it supports Question & Answer, but several answers usually have to be thought through to extract the most appropriate bits. Understanding the theory is helpful, but it's necessary to apply it – practical skills are vital.

Soon after buying a mini-lathe I discovered I wasn't a natural machinist. Impatience is one of my worst faults. I had ruthlessly crush my desire to start by making complex objects and instead put myself through a series of basic exercises designed to lift my skills step-by-step. A mentor or foreman would have provided the necessary discipline – it's hard for individuals to strike the right balance between doing boring exercises and making real things! A mentor might be flawed too: if starting with a far eastern metric lathe with carbide inserts and a VFD, beware the well-meaning chap who can't comprehend that British-made, Imperial Measure, HSS and back-gear isn't the only possible answer!

End result of being self-taught is I have multiple skill gaps. When I hit one, I revert to reading, asking on the forum, and doing basic exercises until I've learned enough to move forward again. It's wasteful, frustrating and demoralising but I've not found a better way. On the plus side, there's always more to learn and solving a difficult problem is highly rewarding.

Dave

[DalboyParticipant @dalboy]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 18/03/2022 10:15:31

The forum is excellent because it supports Question & Answer, but several answers usually have to be thought through to extract the most appropriate bits.

Dave

I agree many forum are a great source of information but only if you can stop the idiots that keep taking the subject matter off subject.

There was a course that run at our local college but when I enquired it seemed that all it was used for was those that just used it to build their models and no instruction was given either in theory or practice all you had was the other students to ask

 

Edited By Derek Lane on 18/03/2022 10:29:59

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Before I retired we were doing a lot of on-line meetings. The company had a number of sites both around the main works and in other countries and on different continents. The ability to avoid a 20 minute walk each way for a meeting when the weather was yuk was great incentive to go online. The savings for international meetings was also great incentive. I still have occasional Zoom meetings to discuss design and production topics with people and do it with a laptop with inbuilt camera, headset with microphone (if required to keep the noise down) and a second (22 inch) large screen. The ability to share screens for showing sketches, CAD or photos and to display finished parts from any angle by holding it in front of the camera and turning it is the way to go when distance between two parties makes face to face meetings problematical.

Actually demonstrating using a machine during a meeting is possible with a modern mobile phone but if space is available you should set up a separate camera or even make a video to discuss in a meeting later on as both hands are required for most things you would be doing with machines. Videos on something like YouTube are a bit restricted to what someone decides you want to see as there is no two way discussion going on. The only thing that you cannot do are hands on of parts or machines.

There are occasions where the forum's private messaging system is used for two way discussions that don't need to be carried out in a thread, this would effectively just be an extension of that.

So, JA, I think if you can find someone who has the time, inclination and necessary equipment and a fast enough internet connection remote mentoring is the way to do it nowadays. After all how much remote teaching of school children has been taking place over the past two years?

There are also other things such as Skype, Duo, Facetime that probably work as well as Zoom.

Martin C

[David-Clark 1Participant @david-clark1]

Hi Silly Old Duffer

i fail to see how a five-day Centre Lathe Turning course can prepare you to use a vertical milling machine to produce engineering projects.

if they don’t know the difference between a lathe and a milling machine I don’r have much hope for the quality of the course.

This five-day Centre Lathe Turning training course gives delegates the skills and knowledge they need safely to operate a vertical milling machine to produce engineering products.

he courses are almost £900 + VAT making them about £10,80 each. That sounds reasonable for a 5 day course.

Thet mention that there is still a demand for manual engineers despite CNC being the mainstay of engineering now.

I would disagree with this assumption.You need to know how to manually turn and mill before you can use a CNC machine properly.

I have seen dozens of CNC millers and turners who can program but have no idea on work holding, tool sharpening, speeds and feeds Eric.

Orne large factory I worked at, the foreman used to hand out the work, he gave jobs that were ideal for CNC to the manual millers and manual work to to the CNC millers. I was on night shift so I just used whichever machine that was more suitable for the job in hand.

I have stood next to my CNC machine while the owner and the foreman argued over who should do a particular job. The foreman wanted me to do the job the owner said anyone should be able to do the job as we were all being paid the same. The foreman won and I did the job.

[LukerParticipant @luker]

Posted by JA on 18/03/2022 08:59:03:

Posted by Old School on 18/03/2022 06:53:57:

The other option is to find a mentor who is prepared to share his skills. I have been lucky I have friend who lives 15 minutes away a very skilled engineer who spent his life as an engineer and designer.

You will also find people who are prepared to help in specialist areas of your hobby and share their skills and knowledge.

I have always thought of this is a near ideal option. I now wonder if it can be combined with Zoom as a one to one meeting.

JA

Zoom or something similar is a really good idea! The young builders at our club often send pictures and videos to each other on private groups for advice and guidance. We have experienced builders on the groups that normally help with pictures or a voice-note. The rule is you need to be upfront if you actually haven't performed the task yourself.

[David-Clark 1Participant @david-clark1]

Another thought about CNC machines, competence and a stupid manager (Managing Director this time),

The firm spent 1/2 million on a CNC horizontal machining centre with 60 BHP at the spindle nose.

The MD decided that it would validate his purchase by using it to machine a hardened steel aircraft components so the machine was all tooled up for this one particular job.

The problem was as the job was hardened steel, it had to be cut at low speeds resulting in the 60 BHP being reduced to 2 BHP at, the spindle. The job got completed eventually but took a very long time.

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

I think we have managed to drift away from the original question. I'm quite amazed more people haven't suggested their local model engineering societies. It's been invaluable to me.

[David-Clark 1Participant @david-clark1]

Hi Derek Lane

is the off subject related to me?

I do wander off a bit because the more something jogs my memory, the more I might wander because something else pops up in my mind.

Being called an idiot does not bother me either. No offence taken if aimed at me amongst others.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by David-Clark 1 on 18/03/2022 11:00:55:

Hi Silly Old Duffer

i fail to see how a five-day Centre Lathe Turning course can prepare you to use a vertical milling machine to produce engineering projects.

…

I noticed that too – a typo I think, perhaps caused by creating the webpage by cut and pasting from the description of a milling course. As they always wrote on my school homework: 'Careless work, see me'

The link was just an example of a fairly typical commercial course one could attend. I doubt it does what Choochoo wants.

Dave

[David-Clark 1Participant @david-clark1]

Yes, a lazy man’s typo an not bothering to check afterwards.

I copied the syllabus in case I can do some video courses on YouTube.

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