Engineering as Art

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Recent posts about the start of CAD are interesting, especially from the perspective of an old fashioned drafter!! One of the reasons that I was happy to move away from drafting, in the late 80s was exactly as PatJ described, lots of individuals doing their own thing. When I think about it I seem to have spent key periods in my working life walking away from computers!!

cheers

Bill

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 12/01/2022 22:28:56:

[…]

When plotters first appeared, memory was small and expensive, so simplicity ruled: lines would be drawn in the order received.

[…]

.

Whilst I wouldn’t dream of doubting your word on the matter, Dave … I would just mention that my experience with Autocad and a Roland plotter dates back to when Autocad was shipped on thirteen floppy disks, and we ran it on an Olivetti M24 8086 desktop PC.

The plotter skipped around [just like the ones in the HP and Roland videos] when plotting Columbia.hpgl

By your logic therefore … it appears that was already in the ‘more powerful’ sector.

MichaelG.

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Edit: __ See the legendary Columbia image at the bottom of this page:

https://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/e5/chapter2_19.html

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 13/01/2022 00:08:15

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Would I have one of the old hand drawn drawings framed on the wall? Yes if SWMO would let me. Would I have a pickled shark in the room? Not under any circumstances. But it is art, so would it make me think? Yes, it would make me think 'what sort of a **** would pay good money for this junk?'

Edited By duncan webster on 12/01/2022 23:51:09

[PatJParticipant @patj87806]

Posted by Ches Green UK on 12/01/2022 12:04:59:

PatJ,

Thanks for that useful brief on different CAD systems' 'standards'.

Are there actually any 2D CAD packages that rigorously follow

– ISO 128 – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_128 or

– BS 8888 – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_8888 ?

Ches

Edited By Ches Green UK on 12/01/2022 12:05:32

From the net, ISO 128 is an international standard (ISO) about the general principles of presentation in technical drawings, specifically the graphical representation of objects on technical drawings.

The book I was trained with, and the book I still reference is titled "Technical Drawing, 7th Ed.", by Macmillian Publishing Co., copyright 1980.

It is really a great book, with some exceptional illustrations in it.

As to what standard my book adheres to, I don't know, but it is an excellent way to illustrate graphical drawings.

To answer your question, I see CAD packages as being like automobiles.

Which side of the road does your automobile drive on?

Whichever side you steer towards.

So in generally, I think you can use about any CAD package to create any type of symbol or drawing style, and adhere to any standard that you wish to adhere to.

I created a steam engine magazine article using AutoCad, and sent it to various places on the web so that they could post it. One person sent me back a note and said "It looks like you have copied someone's magazine article, we can't post it".

I sent him my AutoCad file that showed all the pages of the article.

He sent me back a response "I guess it is all in how you fly it".

Hope this answers your question.

.

[Ches Green UKParticipant @chesgreenuk]

Thanks Pat.

I used 'Engineering Drawing Practice' by Simmons & Maguire pub 1974. It turned BS 308 (later replaced by BS 8888 https://cadsetterout.com/drawing-standards/bs-308-and-all-that/ ) into a readable and easily understandable format. We also kept a copy of BS308 in the DO.

At home I have a Rotring A2 draughting board plus all my all old drawing tools, so that gets me by.

I don't have any skills in 2D or 3D CAD packages but there is an itch to learn. However, each time I try a package I find the learning curve is too much for a pastime activity. I've got QCAD (2D only) currently installed on my desktop, gathering dust ;-( But this thread has encouraged me to download the extracts from the QCAD .pdf Manual so I'll have a read through that and see if it inspires me.

Ches.

Edited By Ches Green UK on 13/01/2022 10:10:36

Edited By Ches Green UK on 13/01/2022 10:12:00

[PatJParticipant @patj87806]

The trick to learning CAD/Modeling programs is to use them a little each day, but not so much that you get too frustrated when you hit snags.

My first 2D CAD drawing was a bit rough, but usable.

With each drawing after that one, I improved.

If you try to use a CAD program once a month, chances are you may not ever learn it.

When I tried to learn 3D modeling in 2012 (Solidworks), I was terribly intimidated by the vast array of buttons and menus. It took a long time to even figure out where to start.

But having learned both 2D CAD and 3D modeling, I find that I generally use about 5 commands for perhaps 90% of the work.

All those other buttons are either seldom used, or perhaps added so as to keep up with the marketing aspects of the software; ie: the competition has 5,000 commands, so we must offer 7,500 !

For 3D modeling, I draw a sketch on a 2D plane, then switch to 3D mode, and most of the time either extrude a solid shape, or extrude a cut. Sometimes I rotate the sketch to produce a sphere or something.

That is probaby 90% of what I do in 3D modeling.

With 2D CAD, you draw a line of some type, either straight, curved, spline, or perhaps a circle.

Then you typically copy/mirror/trim/rotate/stretch/extend that line, and then draw another one.

Sometimes I draw squares/rectangles. So again in 2D CAD, I probably use 5 commands 90% of the time.

My brother looked at one of my 3D renderings, and he said "that looks extremely complex", and I told him "you would laugh if you knew how few commands I use and how simple it can be".

There are an abundance of video tutorials online now, and I have found that if I find one, and it is too confusing, I find another on the same topic, and it may be far more clear.

There is at least one clear video concerning doing just about anything.

.

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[Ches Green UKParticipant @chesgreenuk]

That's a good brief, thanks. I shall ponder.

Since I'm retired I don't 'have' to learn 2D/3D CAD for my employer so there is a lot less pressure to get on with it. And I can always find the path of least resistance which means there will probably always be something more interesting to do. I need a CAD brain dump to get me up to speed instantly…or some discipline.

Ches

[PatJParticipant @patj87806]

I learned Solidworks (3D modeling) over about a 12 month period, on and off.

Here are a few models I made after that first year.

Many of these are works in progress; some are complete designs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 12/01/2022 23:50:21:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 12/01/2022 22:28:56:

[…]

When plotters first appeared, memory was small and expensive, so simplicity ruled: lines would be drawn in the order received.

[…]

.

…

The plotter skipped around [just like the ones in the HP and Roland videos] when plotting Columbia.hpgl

By your logic therefore … it appears that was already in the ‘more powerful’ sector.

…

Yes, quite likely. Hewlett-Packard was expensive!

Early on, when micro-computers were puny, loads of clever functionality was implemented in electronic and mechanical hardware. Cost a lot of money, but industrial peripherals were pretty impressive. Domestic and small business computer peripherals were usually much simpler, if they existed at all.

Now microcomputers are dirt cheap and massively capable. If a job can be done in software it usually is, because it eliminates much of the need for difficult electro-mechanical design and build.

Microcomputers altered the world. When I were a lad HP made their living by selling high-end electronics, really nice stuff. Today, they're a successful Service supplier. And here I am babbling away on the Internet using a computer several hundred times more powerful than the big ICL mainframe I learned to program on!

Dave

[Ches Green UKParticipant @chesgreenuk]

Pat,

For 12 mths that's very impressive, and the progression is plain to see. And the subject matter (steam engines) is something I am getting interested in.

But the cost of SolidWorks, from what I read, is prohibitive for the home user. It does look like a nice s/w package though.

Ches

[PatJParticipant @patj87806]

Thanks, I am told that Alibre is a low-cost viable alternative to Solidworks.

I bought Solidworks because I also use it for work projects sometimes, othewise I would have gone with Alibre.

There may be other low-cost or even free 3D packages out there, but I don't keep up with them.

.

[Ches Green UKParticipant @chesgreenuk]

I'll have a look at Alibre, thanks.

Apologies to all for dragging the thread away from the original proposition, 'Engineering as Art'. But I suppose Art can only be produced by people and the tools they use

Ches

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

I was enjoying all this archaic stuff when i remembered that my first days at uni were spent learning to draw in pencil.

By the time I graduated draftsmen using pens were no more, it was all 2D CAD. Within a few years I was using 3D parametric CAD.

That was twenty years ago now. I haven't drawn a part professionally in all that time as my current employer is a bit backward in its ways, I do powerpoint and spreadsheet engineering mostly.

The good news is that not only can we now get cheap domestic CAD but we can do additive manufacture too on 3D printers. Roll on progress.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

well I didn't think I was that old, but I've actually drawn on linen sheets with a spring-bow pen. Admittedly only doing modifications, and I soon found that Rotring pens were a lot more controllable, but you needed a fleet of them to do different thickness lines.

BS308….we should club together and buy a copy for whoever does the drawings for ME and MEW. It wasn't a very weighty tome as I remember, and it would avoid some of the oddities that appear from time to time.

 

Edited By duncan webster on 13/01/2022 23:03:54

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

aaahhhh, spring bow pens!! I still use mine!! I've got a copy of BS308 tucked away somewhere, along with DefAus5085 which is an "Australated" version of BS308………happy(ish) days!!

cheers

Bill

[PatJParticipant @patj87806]

I have a set of my dad's spring bow pens. I recall him using the bottle of Indian ink, and administering a few drops to the end of the pen. It all seems rather Neanderthalic when you look back on it, like rubbing two sticks together to start a fire.

I recall that it was critical where you started inking on a drawing, to avoid smears, ie: at the top of the sheet, and working down if I remember correctly.

I think I have a set of the more modern ink pens, the ones with the weight and thin wire, and you shook it to clear out the point. The original pen plotters were notorious for the ink pen drying out late in a 45 minute plot, ofen in the last few minutes.

We use to keep the vellum sheets in drawers, in plastic bags.

On one particularly hot and humid summer day, we noticed that the plotter started losing accuracy, and was noticably off. We called in the plotter repair guy (back when you could actually call real people, and have real people come to your office; those were the days), and he put a sheet of mylar in the plotter, and plotted the same sheet.

The problem vanished. He said "lay your vellum sheets out on the tabletop a few hours before the plot, and let them acclimate to the moisture in the air, and expand a bit".  Problem solved.

We learned something new every day.

I was very happy to see the pen plotters go the way of the Dodo.

The next generation of plotters that we had was the inkjet, and we had a 36" wide inkjet.

They were high resolution (600 dpi), much faster than the pen plotters, and if an inkjet head clogged or ran out of ink, the plotter would pause, let you change cartridges, and then continue the plot.

It was about 1999 when the company I worked at purchases an HP injet, and computers and screens were beginning to improve greatly. I distinctly recall looking at that plotter and saying "With a plotter like that, I could start my own company" (due to the quality and relatively low cost; perhaps $10,000.00).

I did start my own company in 2003, and I have never looked back.

The corporate world is not something I miss.

There is only one rung on my corporate ladder, and I never have to worry about everyone else trying to climb over the top of me to get to the top.

.

 

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[PatJParticipant @patj87806]

There was a short period of time where folks would copy notes and details onto semi-translucent sheets with a sticky back, and then stick entire details/notes etc. onto drawings.

This worked well until you had to change something.

The stick-on material could be erased and re-inked with a permanent marker, but of course it looked rough.

A blueline print of these types of drawings looked pretty bad, with the stick-on part generally being too dark, and the hand-drawn part being too light.

And you generally (but not always) would ruin the sheet if you had to peel off a stick-on.

I recall one new drafting fellow who used ink to add the wrong sheet number to a vellum sheet.

When told of his error, he used the new "whiteout" correction fluid to repair his mistake, which of course produced a huge blue blob when it was blueline printed.

And another fellow (perhaps the same one) used letters that were too large for the sheet number, and so the sheet number did not fit in the space in the titleblock.

He just erased the side of the titleblock, drew a box around his text that protruded out, and went on with his business.

We used I think it was called a Leroy lettering system for a while.

There were various letters engraved into a strip of plastic, and you used a pen with a scribe that rode in the engraved letter slot. All very crude stuff for sure.

But that is how we did it.

Looking back, the old methods seem only slightly more advanced than using a piece of charcoal on a cave wall.

.

Edited By PatJ on 14/01/2022 04:23:08

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[PatJParticipant @patj87806]

Sorry to digress, but when I started school the first time, in 1976, there was a slide rule that was about six feet long hanging on the wall. The professor said "everyone needs to go out and purchase a GOOD slide rule !"

I had a math phobia (LOL, and yes, I became an engineer; I got better), and so I quit engineering school the next day, worked odd jobs, and then started back to school again two years later.

This time the instructor said "everyone needs to go out and purchase a good CALCULATOR ! ".

"Eureka, I am saved" I said, and the rest is history.

I never did learn how to use a slide rule, but I know some engineers who still have theirs hanging on the wall next to their desk.

Those slide rules were voodoo magic for sure.

.

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[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

PatJ you missed out on one of lifes gems!! I had to use a slide rule in two or three jobs, and became fairly proficient in it's use. To this day it remains entertaining and rapid, yes I still have it and yes it gets used every now and then, although the calculator is used more!

cheers

Bill

[JAParticipant @ja]

I used a slide rule until the early 1980's. The company I worked for was too tight for everyone to have the pocket calculators. They were for bosses who occasional lent them to ordinary engineers.

I have recently dug out my slide rule and now use it since it is very fast. Its case also props up my computer keyboard.

JA

Edited By JA on 14/01/2022 09:37:55

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