Engine 1000, or other Yarrow like designs – has there ever been a model?

[Alf JonesParticipant @alfjones33318]

Hello.

 

I was wondering if anyone had any information regarding if an attempt had ever been made to produce a model version of the Engine 1000 loco, or anything similar?

 

The idea’s behind a Yarrow boiler interest me, and the loco that was build is truly lovely to look at:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Engine_10000_(Wonder_Book_of_Engineering_Wonders,_1931).jpg

 

From what information I have, the actual Engine 1000 seems overly complex, two boilers, compound cylinders etc. Perhaps someone has built a free-scale or own design along similar if simplified lines?

 

Thanks in advance for any information

[Alf JonesParticipant @alfjones33318]

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

A form of the Yarrow boiler has been used in locomotives. One type of which, the Brotan Deffner, was used in Hungary Mav 327 and other classes of locomotives, but apart from one or two picture of the locomotive (see in MAV327.jpg) I can learn little. Most of the records and locomotives were lost during the ‘unpleasantness’ with the late and extremely unlamented Herr Hitler, although I have heard a rumour that a tank locomotive at Kiskunhalas has a Brotan-Deffner boiler but from the pictures I am unsure. Some of them had the Steam Reservoir inside the main boiler tube. I may go and look at it next spring. I have also found some pictures of small shunters which seems to have all the characteristics of a Brotan-Deffner boiler.

Do a Google for Brotan-Deffner and pick the ones that have words you cannot recognise _Hungarian) there are some good illustration, but the Google translation into English is a ‘bit quaint’.

One of the main reasons why the Hungarians used the Brotan Deffner boiler was that it used little or no copper which was very expensive at the time.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

“the actual Engine 1000 seems overly complex, two boilers, compound cylinders etc. “

 

Hi Alf,

 

There’s a couple of good diagrams of 10000’s boiler in the book “the design construction and working of locomotive boilers” by Alan J Haigh, ISBN 978-1-901056-39-6. Page 80 shows the boiler with two cross sections.

 

These diagrams do not show two boilers in 10000, but a “split Yarrow” boiler. The boiler had a top drum going the length of the boiler and two sets of two bottom drums, one set for the length of the firebox and one set ahead of the firebox over the drivers. It was really a short Yarrow with a tall Yarrow next to it with a common top drum. There was a superheater in the centre “fire” area of the front Yarrow section. There was a firebrick baffle between the short and tall Yarrow sections, and a brick arch in the firebox section.

 

I have not built a model of 10000 and don’t plan to, but had a few thoughts of how one could be laid out:

 

-two silver soldered copper Yarrow sections with a common top header drum could be built relatively easily. Recent articles by Terence Holland would be a good reference. Larger the scale the easier the boilermaking would be, I would think. A Yarrow boiler in 2 1/2″ gauge would mean some very small tubes and tricky silver soldering (but I bet it could be done!)

 

-the original 10000 used firebrick firebox ends and firebrick lining between tubes – a model would not need this, just an inner heavy steel shell lining and an outer painted cosmetic shell would probably do, with either air gap insulation or glass wool between them. Baffles inside the boiler could be heavy thickness steel or stainless steel.

 

-superheater could be simplified or eliminated

 

-cylinders could be two simple outside ones on a model. For scale appearance some dummy linkage could be made up if desired to simulate linkage to the middle cylinder(s) (not sure about 1000’s cylinder arrangements)

 

-these simplifications done, the challenging bit compared to conventional locomotives would be the shaped sheetmetal casing on the boiler. Similar challenge to building a casing on a model of Mallard or a Princess Coronation shell. (well beyond my sheetmetal skills!)

 

Have a go, keep us posted!

 

JD

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

At last I have found some pictures I can copy for you. They ate at http://www.vlaki.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3662&start=60 which is in German and http://erojr.home.cern.ch/erojr/Content/phylo/BROTAN.HTM which is in English

As you will see the firebox contained the Yarrow type water tube which fed steam into a separate collector. On the original Botran boilers the separate steam collector fed into a standard fire tube boiler; this it in turn fed water into the Yarrow fire tube system in the fire box.

The Brotan-Defner boiler was a modification of the original Botron, but here the steam reservoir was connected directly into the main fire tube boiler. This made the boiler rather tall
There are a few models in the Budapest Transport Museum but weather they work or not i have no idea.

Hungarian Botran-Deffner

 

A Baldwin 60,000 boiler

[,Participant @nousername29627]

Hi Alf

 

I have sent you a PM regarding a 5″ model of 10000 ‘ hush hush’ ‘ That a fellow club member has built and runs on a regular basis.

 

Phil

 

P.S. If anyone can tell me how to post pictures from the ‘My Pictures’ file on my PC I will post a couple so all you disbelievers can see iut!

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi Phil,

This is how to add pictures.

 

1 Click on “My Photos” (Under “My Account” at top left of Home page.)

2 Click on “Create a Photo Album” (Fill in a name and description for the album)

3 Click on “Create Album”

4 Click on one of the “browse” buttons. (Navigate to the folder and photo you want to upload. They must be in .jpg format.)

5 Repeat this to select up to three more photos then click on “Upload Photos”

6 If you want to add more photos click on “Edit Album Info” and then click on “Add More Photos” (As in steps 4 and 5)

Now you have the pictures in “My Photos” on the website you can insert them into your reply on the forum.

To do this click on the “insert image” button at the top of the “Post a reply” box (Next to last button)
This will show you the albums you have uploaded. Now select the photo you want to insert.

Les.

[,Participant @nousername29627]

Many thanks Les – noiw lets see if I followed that correctly…….

 

.

First picture shows the boiler fitted to the model of No;10000 minus its outer case. This suffered warping and cracking in exactly the same way as the full size version.

The bottom picture is of the model on one of its first test runs. The initial tests wer done using gas firing.

 

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Hi Kinlet Hall 4396,

 

Where did the boiler on the 5″ gauge model warp and crack? I’m not aware of any of the boiler failures on the full size 10,000.

 

I see the front course of water tubes on the model was made longer front to back than the original boiler’ front course of tubes. Was this done for more heating surface in the model version of the boiler?

 

Thanks for posting the pics. Looks like a nice model in any case, well done to the builder.

 

Now if we could just hear from the original poster Alf (!?)

 

JD

 

[Alf JonesParticipant @alfjones33318]

Hello, here I am.

 

Thank you for all of the information, it has been very useful, also to the people who sent me PM’s with additional details. This has been most appreciated.

 

What I hadn’t realised is the amount of complexity around “Yarrow-type” boilers – it’s a whole seperate sub-species.

 

The reason I was initially interested was that the actual Yarrow boiler looks fairly easy to make ( straight water tubes, simple joints etc ). The boiler designs posted by Richard and Kinlet are anything but!

 

I am interested in starting a train – I am really a boat person to date – and while I think the LBSC designs are wondering, I can’t get the enthusiasm up to build something that 50 other people have already done.

 

So I am wondering about picking a simple design, maybe something like a Super Simplex with the Joy Valve gear, and then spend some time “playing” with different area’s, for example using a own-design Yarrow boiler, experimenting with Gas heating, maybe incorperating some of the lovely external lines of the 10000.

 

I want a platform which I can play with and experiment with over time. This thread has just hardened that determination. Expect more technical questions in the near future!!

 

I do have a question for this group. What what I know, the Yarrow designs are one of the most efficient boilers, when looking at Kg/steam per minute per M^2 of heating surface. I was wondering why they didn’t see more use in trains?

 

 

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

There is a very recent book on 10000:

 

Hush-Hush

 

There is an O-gauge kit for the loco, and at least one very impressive model in that scale has recently been published in the Gauge 0 Guild Gazette.

 

David

[,Participant @nousername29627]

Hi Jeff

Suggest you read the book suggested by David – from what I remember it gives all the details of why and how the boiler failed and why it was deemed a total failure along with details of compounding and cylinder arrangements that were tried. The original builder of the model had almost identical problems as in full size and concludes that he just scaled down the failures!

 

He eventually rebuilt the loco with a P2 boiler and she now runs as a conventional 3 cylinder engine – as the original Hush Hush did and he has reproduced the later style casing. She is now a faithful copy of no 10000 as she was just before she was scrapped

No;10000 Hush Hush as she is today – a very fast and powerful model

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

“Suggest you read the book suggested by David – from what I remember it gives all the details of why and how the boiler failed”

 

I was hoping for a brief summary of what happened to the model. Books like David mentioned are nonexistant in my local library and I am not interested enough in locomotive 10,000 to fork out a lot of money to buy and ship such a book.

 

A brief summary would be appreciated and may also help Alf the original poster, as he is considering making a Yarrow boiler.

 

JD

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Jeff,

 

The information was not aimed at you, it was Alf who asked the original question. Anyway, the book (likely to be the last word on the subject for some time) is only 20 quid, so one would have to be fairly thoroughly “not interested” to turn the nose up at it.

 

David

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Hi David,

 

I would like to buy the book, but in the past when buying books from the UK it can get expensive fast. Added to the purchase price are shipping, brokerage, 13% provincial sales tax, and sometimes duty (since there are different duties payable on certain categories of technical books in Canada where I am, and the rules are almost always misapplied to steam hobby books). With all these “money grabs” the 20 pound amount you mention could easily become 80 or 100 pounds, which far exceeds my book budget. It has happened to me in the past. Maybe if I visit UK in future (I do pass through periodically, flying on business) I’ll make arrangements to get a copy in person and carry it home.

 

JD

[,Participant @nousername29627]

http://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/176-0553336-5775656?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=william+brown+hush+hush&x=15&y=13

 

Hi Jeff

Not sure if the above link will work but a quick ‘google’ showad me that Amazon in Canada sells the book for about 32 dollars.

 

As I did not build this model I can only say what I have learned by talking to the chap concerned over several years.

I am in correspondence with Alf and he has asked me several specific questions which I will get the answers for when I next see the builder and I will also ask him for a brief breakdown as to why the boiler failed in such a manner as to lead him to scrap several hundreds of pounds worth of materials.

I would heartily suggest the book as it gives a huge amount of detail not only about 10000 but also the abortive work that Chapelon did in France on high pressure compounded locos and also a huge amount of detail on compounding in trhis country and also the theories about Yarrow type boilers.

I found it an absolutely fascinating read for the general engineering content

Regards

Phil

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I think there has been a 3 1/2 version displayed a few times on the North London Club stand at the Ally Pally show. I don’t know whether it has a yarrow boiler but I recall it is an excellent quality model.

[Author]

Posts