Encouraging new hobbyists

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

My experience of visiting other ME clubs is limited, but each time I have been made welcome, and shown around.

With regard to CRB, my understanding is that a check is required for REGULAR contact. But it gets stupid, at church a school teacher, was required to have one to teach youngsters in Sunday School.

Officialdom believed that she became a pedophile between 5.00 pm Friday and 9:00 am Monday!

I know that Hereford SME (live too far away to be a member) encourages youngsters, even having a separate workshop where they can make useful parts for the club, and are taught to work as guards, and eventually drivers.

When PSME had a track, youngsters were allowed to drive when the public passenger hauling was not in progress.

During the latter years of my employment, I often mentored undergraduates during their gap year. The ones who took an interest in learning how things worked, and how things could go wrong, did very well. Some were eventually invited to go to our US parent, to show and advise on what they had learned, so that their practical and theoretical skills could be used.

Only two, as I recall, thought that such things were beneath them, and they turned out to be neither use nor ornament.

In general, the UK public never realise that what they have and use, is the result of the work and skills of Engineers; unlike the continent, where engineers are held in esteem. Being a hedge fund manager is a poor qualification for changing a wheel on the side of a motorway at 2:00 in the morning!

Rant over, off to put away soap box.

Howard

[Anonymous]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 30/03/2017 16:13:59:

Being a hedge fund manager is a poor qualification for changing a wheel on the side of a motorway at 2:00 in the morning!

Possibly, but it'd be a wasted skill to acquire as the hedge fund manager would normally get the chauffeur to change the wheel.

Andrew

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 30/03/2017 16:28:58:

Posted by Howard Lewis on 30/03/2017 16:13:59:

Being a hedge fund manager is a poor qualification for changing a wheel on the side of a motorway at 2:00 in the morning!

Possibly, but it'd be a wasted skill to acquire as the hedge fund manager would normally get the chauffeur to change the wheel.

Andrew

Don't they have private helicopters?

Neil

[William YoderParticipant @williamyoder56665]

I see in the US excorbinant prices, even for 3/4" scale castings. If we are to win new, young hobbyists, then we need suppliers willing to make their profit on quanitty, not through the huge market on single pieces.

Can someone name suppliers who are commiting to lower pricing, also out of dererence to the new hobbyists with limited income? Who is shooting for profit through quanitity?

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

How is anyone going to manage quantity when the market for castings consists of so many tiny niches?

The tools are less problematic because they carry across to other hobbies/businesses.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Well, I posted my take on all this on 26th March, and no one has commented subsequently on what I posted.

One youngster I taught how to drive one of my miniature locos is now building his own in his late teens some 15 years on and is now employed fulltime on a preserved railway on the loco department side with a proper engineering apprenticeship. He is also now on the committee of his ME club, where I was once secretary for many years.

Cheers,

Julian

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

I started model engineering in high school but when I discovered girls, motorbikes, alcohol and drugs, there was no time or money left for model engineering anymore. Fifty years later, the allure of girls, motorbikes, alcohol and drugs is not quite as all-encompassing as it once was (I guess the novelty is wearing off?) and I have been getting back into model engineering. It seems like lathes and tools are way cheaper and more accessible today than they were in the 1970s so I have a far better workshop set up than I could have dreamed of back then, without spending a lot of money. Maybe the future of the hobby lies more in the "returning" model engineers like me who are reaching the age and stage of life where they have the time and money to indulge in what they wanted to do as youths but never got to? Much like the "retread" motorbike riders of the same age group currently fuelling the phenomenal sales of Harley Davidsons and the ever-growing range of "retro" models from all the other bike major manufacturers.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by julian atkins on 05/04/2017 23:04:04:

Well, I posted my take on all this on 26th March, and no one has commented subsequently on what I posted.,

Julian

Wow you were so lucky. I had no idea model engineering existed until I found a copy of ME when I was 20. Zero facilities at school, no ME club, no miniature track, no preserved railway, no traction engine rally within range. Once I had moved to London for work I found MEX at Wembley but flat dwelling limited metalworking to that needed for my electronics which was an easier hobby to get into then as is computer games now.

Looking back although I went to every ME show from about age 22 but no clubs seemed accessible to someone with no experience, and the cheapest lathe as the ML10 was 3 months wages without chuck or motor. I think my biggest mistake then was thinking a lathe and shed was necessary as it puts up a huge barrier for young, poor, city dwellers.

I think therefore a greater emphasis needs to be made of worthwhile activities that can be done with only hand tools and greater awareness via other hobby channels such as computing, gaming, model railways, model boats etc.

[Henry ArtistParticipant @henryartist43508]

One of the biggest stumbling blocks for people wanting to get into model engineering is the percieved cost of setting up a small workshop. Another is what they can then, as novices, construct with the tools they can afford.

Someone entering the world of model engineering today is more likely to buy a mini-lathe (C3, CJ18A, etc.) than a Myford. When was the last time Model Engineer magazine ran articles on making models specifically with a mini-lathe?

I believe more people could be encouraged to take up the hobby if the makers of casting kits offered pre-machined flywheels. Bengs Modellbau do this but no-one else seems to have realised it is a good idea.

Another thing not yet mentioned in this thread is the role toy steam can play in getting people interested in model engineering. Mamod, Jensen and Wilesco are alive and well and still making wonderful steam toys. Of the three only Wilesco offer an extensive range of accessories and tinplate toys that can be driven by toy steam engines. I think it would be a good idea if plans were published of simple accessories and devices that can be driven by small engines. Sometimes people need inspiration…

[Old SchoolParticipant @oldschool]

Model engineering seems to be building and running steam powered loco,s and traction engines and this is the basis for a lot of model engeering clubs. Other interest seem not to be catered for. I stuck it out at my local ME club for two years but the clubs focus was making sure they could do the public train running. With little or no interest in anything else. The hobby needs a wider focus that covers all model types, I like things that go fast currently tether cars but are they model engineering the people who race them build and maintain the cars but are not members of the model engineering community. The old Eastern Europe has junior teams that compete with tether cars and have access to work shops to build and maintain cars. So the hobby is still alive and growing.

[Steven GreenhoughParticipant @stevengreenhough56335]

I think Henry has a good point here. The thing is that for alot of new guys, model engineering or ‘making’ isn’t an extension of what they already know, it’s escapism from the modern condition.

It requires some commitment in terms of time skill and money, and the money’s difficult to rationalise when you’ll be providing the other 2 off your own back and by trial and error. A 5 inch gauge Brittania or a 6 inch scale fowler are frankly frightening propositions for somebody who doesn’t know the ropes but small ‘toys’ can fuel the imagination.

This points to a divide that was apparent when I was attending the local MES. The important stuff was club business, running the track, etc. There were plenty of encouraging words and even some practical suggestions and even the odd bit of tooling passed on put there was also a good bit of skill and project snobbery, some could not understand why I was building an o gauge toy and I was nearly seduced by all the big engines working the club track… not at all what I had in mind when I started. What some might see as a kids project could be a real achievement for some. Even the recent-ish small loco Idris in ME was constructed to a standard that the modern tyro would find intimidatating.

I am of course making assumptions about the amount of engineering that the older hand would have been exposed to naturally as part of their formative days wheras I believe that from the early 80s onwards it hasn’t really been encouraged amongst the young… but i do think that we need to remember that for any given number of new recruits the proportion with zero experience is probably growing year on year.

Edited By Steven Greenhough on 06/04/2017 21:17:19

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Henry Artist on 06/04/2017 20:29:19:

Someone entering the world of model engineering today is more likely to buy a mini-lathe (C3, CJ18A, etc.) than a Myford. When was the last time Model Engineer magazine ran articles on making models specifically with a mini-lathe?

The truth is there's not much you can do on a Myford you can't do on a mini-lathe, the only real difference in capability is the lack of a gap so most Anthony Mount designs (with 8" flywheels) are mini-lathe no-nos!

Very few projects are machine specific, really they tend to require a certain minimum centre height and almost all turning projects in ME and MEW can be done on any 3 1/2" centre height machine.

For the record my Southam build which is being serialised in ME was made on a Mini Lathe and an X2 milling machine, as were my previous model builds in ME.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Steven Greenhough on 06/04/2017 21:13:17:

Even the recent-ish small loco Idris in ME was constructed to a standard that the modern tyro would find intimidatating.

Much as I'd like to pretend otherwise, I think Southam is very much to a standard anyone should be able to achieve with a little patience. The likes of Cherry Hill/Chris Vine I am not!

Neil

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Before complaining that a club is preoccupied with running the track for the public have a think about the finances. Our club spends more than half the subs of insurance, then more than half on the club newsletter. We cannot run for the public so have to run an exhibition every year to make ends meet. Some members don't like to help run a track exhibition or even contribute in other ways often putting an unfair burden on a minority. Some clubs have machinery to help with that big flywheel but their insurance costs must be even higher.

One advantage of model boats is that all of the bodywork is just wood so does not require much machinery and the flywheel is probably under 2 in diameter. Even a Super Adept can make a marine engine. Likewise model trucks and cars can be an easier entry point.

[Old SchoolParticipant @oldschool]

Bazyle, I am not complaining but making the point that ME clubs are too focused on running loco,s and this where the effort goes possibly at the expense of other forms of model engineering and the loss of new blood into the hobby. I understand the need for this focus to financially support the club but it's not what I want to do so i am looking for another club that maybe more accommodating.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Steven Greenhough on 06/04/2017 21:13:17:

… it's escapism from the modern condition.

.

Eloquently put, Sir

MichaelG.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

My crystal ball:

Things will naturally evolve. If ME clubs continue to focus solely on 19th century railway engineering they will disappear. Those that embrace all engineering and techniques of 20th and 21st centuries will attract new blood and flourish.

Russell

[Henry ArtistParticipant @henryartist43508]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 06/04/2017 21:43:16:

Posted by Henry Artist on 06/04/2017 20:29:19:

Someone entering the world of model engineering today is more likely to buy a mini-lathe (C3, CJ18A, etc.) than a Myford. When was the last time Model Engineer magazine ran articles on making models specifically with a mini-lathe?

The truth is there's not much you can do on a Myford you can't do on a mini-lathe, the only real difference in capability is the lack of a gap so most Anthony Mount designs (with 8" flywheels) are mini-lathe no-nos!

Very few projects are machine specific, really they tend to require a certain minimum centre height and almost all turning projects in ME and MEW can be done on any 3 1/2" centre height machine.

For the record my Southam build which is being serialised in ME was made on a Mini Lathe and an X2 milling machine, as were my previous model builds in ME.

Neil

That's good to know Neil.

Most of the people I encounter who wish to become involved in model engineering have NO engineering background whatsoever. They never learned it at school or college, never saw it in their daily work. Indeed they seem to come from every walk of life except engineering! There may be a distant childhood memory of playing with a Mamod engine or Meccano but that's about it.

Often they have become involved in toy steam and wish to progress to model steam. There's not a lot out there for these people to help them make the transition and they are often acting in isolation. They don't know anyone in the real world they can go along and talk to in person. Forums like this one can be a useful resource of infomation for absolute beginners, especially if it has an easy-to-find "How To…" section. You'd be amazed at how young* people would much prefer to look up information on the web rather than go read a book.

Questions I often get asked include:

• Where can I buy a boiler kit?
• Where can I find plans for things for my engines to run?
• Where can I buy pre-machined kits?
• How do I make boiler bushes/fittings?
• How can I make a displacement lubricator?
• How do I soft solder steam pipes?
• How do I fit a gas burner to my toy steam boiler?

As has already been pointed out most model engineering clubs and societies have a distinct predilection for railways which operate outdoors. Given the unpredictable nature of our climate engines, devices, models and other contraptions which can be run indoors on a table top hold a significant appeal especially if they are easy to construct and operate. This is, after all, about encouraging people into the hobby…

*From my perspective anyone under the age of 40 years is "young".

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Bazyle on 06/04/2017 23:40:52:

One advantage of model boats is that all of the bodywork is just wood so does not require much machinery and the flywheel is probably under 2 in diameter. Even a Super Adept can make a marine engine.

And, according to some, the Super Adept can also double up as the anchor

[Phil StevensonParticipant @philstevenson54758]

This has been an interesting thread to follow. To clarify, I am a newbie at metal wrangling. I bought my first (mini) lathe last year at the age of 62. I have woodturned for many years but never had an experience or education in metal work, no relatives to inspire me etc. I do however know a couple of blokes who turn and mill metal msotly to make ornamental lathes, not model engines. Which brings me to my point – leaving the pros and cons of ME clubs to one side for a moment, isn't it most common for someone of whatever age to get interested in ME because they know someone who does it? And that being the case, aren't all we ME-ers, of whatever level of skill or experience, the best initial source of knowledge, inspiration for friends, neighbours and acquaintances who might conceivably be interested? I always work wood or metal with my garage door open and it's amazing who wanders over for a nosey.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Clubs and railways.

Very few people join a club just to encourage others, they do so to associate with like-minded people and to access resources that are otherwise unavailable to them.

The truth is that most people don't have the room to have their own railway track. Running a loco is about the only aspect of model engineering that effectively requires some form of club to be possible.

This means that the vast majority of people who join ME clubs do so in order to access the track.

In the same way, most people who join boating clubs do so to access a lake and aeromodellers to access a flying field.

I think you will find very few ME clubs (aside from the SMEE) that were not chiefly established in order to provide members access a railway track.

We should be constructive and encourage clubs to see the benefits of widening their appeal, rather than knocking them for doing what they were set up to do.

Neil

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

When I was working as a Nurse in a country hospital in Central Otago (I lived in the staff quarters), I had a tool box of hand tools, a portable vice that I could clamp on a bench. I didn't make models, but most of the work I did was making bits and pieces for use in the hospital, and radio aerials for other members of our CB radio club. The metal supply was either the local boat builder, they built the Jet Boats for Shotover Jets at Queenstown, so plenty of aluminium, or the town rubbish dump which was very productive.

Ian S C

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Henry Artist on 07/04/2017 10:02:26:

Given the unpredictable nature of our climate engines, devices, models and other contraptions which can be run indoors on a table top hold a significant appeal especially if they are easy to construct and operate.

Try astronomy!

Three months of almost solid cloud, and it finally parts a few days ago, just as the moon is starting to dominate the skies for two weeks

Neil

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Neil, the same sort of thing happens if you try to build a wind turbine to generate electricity, for the first fortnight after you set everything up there isn't a breath of wind, so nothing happens, then there is a gale that flattens everything, so nothing happens(well that was me), next thing to do is tidy up, and think of something else to do.

Ian S C

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Sounds like the same relationship as between restored motorcycles and rain.

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