Encouraging new hobbyists

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

Neil, MEW covers that already? Only in metal. I see little mention of other materials, wood, plastic, jewellery-making, glass, fibreglass. I've just built a project using plastic sheet, bars and angle, plus brass, steel and MDF. It's not pretty, but it proves a design concept. This is not a criticism, but a constructive suggestion.

BTW, I think CRB covers only 'work' situations, but not being alone with youngsters is a wise precaution anyway.

Geoff

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Geoff Theasby on 26/03/2017 21:06:23:

Neil, MEW covers that already? Only in metal. I see little mention of other materials, wood, plastic, jewellery-making, glass, fibreglass. I've just built a project using plastic sheet, bars and angle, plus brass, steel and MDF. It's not pretty, but it proves a design concept. This is not a criticism, but a constructive suggestion.

So you missed the embedded electronics, wooden oilstone box, plastic laser centre finder and 3D printing in recent issues then?

Neil

[Ed DuffnerParticipant @edduffner79357]

From my own personal experience as a young lad I remember seeing my eldest brother's Meccano steam engine and my dad's small modeller's lathe. On many an occasion I would travel into the centre of Bristol with my dad to do some shopping where we'd always walk by or go into Beatties and The Modeller's Den, where I became fascinated with European model railways and especially electric locos, not sure why, the real thing was something thousands of miles away for all I knew and this was the start of my interest in modelling. My eldest brother was also a keen kit modeller and I naturally followed into that too.

With new technologies and materials becoming available to industry over the past few decades I believe the modelling world is continually evolving to use those too. Perhaps steam models will at some point be mostly forgotten like the clockwork automatons from the last couple of centuries, although maybe not for another hundred years or so. The next generation will be more into radio control, drone helicopters and the latest technologies to produce those like 3D printing, hobby based CNC etc.

I think early exposure to models, model railways, steam engines was key to encouraging my interests, plus my dad worked at Rolls-Royce Filton so there was often an engineering topic to ask or chat about. I've only recently (since 2011 ish) become interested in machining when I could afford machine tools and wish I could have done it sooner when dad was still alive – I know he was planning on building a small 3-cylinder wobbler engine – I still have some of the parts and hope to continue with it at some point.

Ed.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Dusty on 26/03/2017 19:57:25:

A word of warning. It has been mentioned inviting youngsters into your workshop. Do not do this unless you have a CRB disclosure certificate, you could be breaking the law. I forgot to mention the School we help at is an all girls school, even so we always make sure that there are always two of us with the students.

Disclosures are poorly understood. I have considerable experience of this, having managed significant numbers of people working with children and vulnerable adults.

Only the employer (including employers of volunteers) can request a disclosure. You can't ask for one yourself, for example to show the parents of a child who wishes to use your workshop.

They should NOT be required for people who don't have repeated or unsupervised access to young people.

If a school groups visits your club the school should NOT need a disclosure.

Many schools will request a disclosure in circumstances outside what the law requires. They should not do this but they seem to think a piece of paper gives them better protection than implementing simple precautions (such as the no 1 to 1 contact and the provision of easy ways for young people or other adults to raise concerns).

The big danger to young people is 1 to 1 contact with someone on a regular basis (the classic example is a sports coach – I don't mean to imply all sports coaches are dodgy, just that this exemplifies the sort of contact that some people will take advantage of).

Clearly, having a young person regularly visiting you alone in your workshop is potentially putting yourself in a difficult position if, for any reason, the young person makes a complaint. Only you can judge if you are comfortable being in such a situation, and equally only the parents of the child can decide if they are comfortable with the arrangement.

Bear in mind having a disclosure is no protection for you whatsoever – that bit of paper would give you no protection in the event of an allegation. It is just a way of an employer showing they have taken reasonable steps to ensure they don't take on someone who should not be working with vulnerable people.

Bear in mind that groups are safer for everyone – most of us would be comfortable driving a group of youngsters to an event though we may feel uncomfortable with the idea of being alone with a stranger's child.

You have to make your own decisions.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

This is my take on the subject.

On Easter Sunday 3rd April 1983 I was invited to the Isle of Wight Model Engineering Society at the age of 16.

I was invited to drive one of Arthur Grimmett's miniature locos after one lap sitting behind him and talking about all things Great Western. After one lap Arthur went off for a cup of tea and I was left to drive and haul passengers on my own.

I was hooked!

I joined the IWMES, and very soon after cycled to Don Young's home at Adgestone to buy the Railmotor drawings and most of the castings.

In those days W H Hurst and Son (Ironmongers Newport IOW) had a steel yard in Sea Street that provided the frame material and much else besides.

I had Wednesday afternoons 'off' in the Sixth Form (we were supposed to do sporting activities) but persuaded the Head I could use the metalwork facilities instead, and the metalwork master Ken Stratton agreed. So I did all handwork at home and workshop time was carefully planned for machining. I also used Arthur Grimmett's well equipped workshop during school holidays.

Within 12 months I had a working chassis running on air.

I received considerable encouragement and generous help from IWMES members all those years ago. Some of it was blunt forthright advice at my shortcomings. After a few years I had a secondhand basic lathe and drilling machine in a shed I built in my parents' garden. Later this shed was moved to my first home and the equipment added to (all secondhand antiquated stuff which I still have).

My motivation was to drive a steam locomotive, and the only way I saw this possible was in miniature. Volunteering on preserved railways indicated a long hard dedicated slog to achieve this aim. Model engineering was a far easier option!

Cheers,

Julian

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

Hi Neil,

Of course I haven't missed them. I said, 'little mention' not 'none'. Alex du Pre and Angus French come to mind. Of course, 3-D printing for we domestic engineers anyway, uses plastic, and a recent item on vacuum forming. I am making no distinction now between ME and MEW. Styrene sheet is useful for more than just constructing lineside buildings, and the range of plastic extrusions is large, but neglected, in view of the comparable range available in brass.

Geoff

[DustyParticipant @dusty]

Neil

Thank you for the info re disclosure. I , along with the rest of the team do have disclosure certificates as we do have regular and unsupervised contact. I suspect, that what we were told, when we started this project, has been distorted a little and it is assumed that any contact requires the check.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Woodworking is a lot more accessible both for materials, machines, and everyday uses that people can see the need for.
As MEW is tools and equipment oriented there is a tendency for the projects to be adjuncts for that expensive lathe/mill. However I have just read an email advert for a 'pocket hole jig' for woodworkers that costs £95 and other pictures on the page were for dovetail jointers etc.
Perhaps woodwork aids both involving our sophisticated metal munchers but also in simpler forms for basic tools would be a simpler entry level with a potential wider market.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Dusty on 27/03/2017 10:14:30:

Neil

Thank you for the info re disclosure. I , along with the rest of the team do have disclosure certificates as we do have regular and unsupervised contact. I suspect, that what we were told, when we started this project, has been distorted a little and it is assumed that any contact requires the check.

Indeed. I have heard of parents demanding someone has a check in order to look after their youngster – something well outside of the remit of the regulations. Also possibly damaging to someone's reputation when they find they can't obtain a disclosure, even though they know they have a clean record.

Neil

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 27/03/2017 13:24:45:Indeed. I have heard of parents demanding someone has a check in order to look after their youngster – something well outside of the remit of the regulations. Also possibly damaging to someone's reputation when they find they can't obtain a disclosure, even though they know they have a clean record.

Neil

Unfortunately this emphasis on pieces of paper can be counter productive.

I used to teach and run a martial arts (Aikido) club in the UK. We had a thriving children's section. However when all these rules came into place I was told that I would have to attend a special coaching course and all instructors must have a CRB check to continue. As the club was run on a shoestring by volunteers we decided that it was too expensive and too much trouble so we had to close the children's section.

Russell

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 27/03/2017 20:33:37:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 27/03/2017 13:24:45:Indeed. I have heard of parents demanding someone has a check in order to look after their youngster – something well outside of the remit of the regulations. Also possibly damaging to someone's reputation when they find they can't obtain a disclosure, even though they know they have a clean record.

Neil

Unfortunately this emphasis on pieces of paper can be counter productive.

I used to teach and run a martial arts (Aikido) club in the UK. We had a thriving children's section. However when all these rules came into place I was told that I would have to attend a special coaching course and all instructors must have a CRB check to continue. As the club was run on a shoestring by volunteers we decided that it was too expensive and too much trouble so we had to close the children's section.

Russell

Not an unfamiliar story, alas.

Neil

[Phil StevensonParticipant @philstevenson54758]

Some interesting views here and here are a few of mine fwiw. I've been a member of a woodturning club for many years and guess what? We've been asking the same questions for donkeys years. Our response (far from perfect) is community engagement – public demos, school fairs etc but especially, creating a welcoming environment at club meetings. We have members dedicated to welcoming visitors and following up their visits. We go out of our way to involve newbies, young and old, in club meetings and encourage them to pick up tools and have a go. I'm sorry to say my several visits to my local ME club have been pretty dire. A couple of sideways glances at me, no attempt at welcoming me, monosyllabic answers when I started a conversation, no-one asked me about my interests or experience. All rather disappointing, but maybe that's just me. Thank heavens for forums like this or my metal wrangling would be dead in the water. The costs of pursuing metal or wood working are high (although incidentally you get a helluva lot more of a metal lathe for a grand than a woodturning lathe – why is that?), space is need as is time. Not easy. Aren't welcoming clubs that offer access to decent equipment and a bit of hands on tuition part of the answer?

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Hi Phil,

As a woodturner I recognize your observations and experience – certainly deja vue. I don't think there's an ME club near me but I did have an unwelcoming visit to a small woodturning club where I've lived before.

The club where I am now has a very similar ethos to yours in that potential new members are actively welcomed as much as possible and we run public events at village shows and the county show in our area to try to raise awareness – but clubs are not just about novices and newbies.

I'm now the Programme Secretary for my WT club for my sins and I think that one of the problems I face is that new members want novice hands-on events as you say but the more experienced members of any club want more specialized intermediate and expert level "inspirational" demos. Striking a balance between these conflicting desires is quite tricky IME.

We're obviously all different but our hobbies are essentially pretty solitary and although many members have experience that could really help novices it's difficult to persuade many to offer up that expertise when they'd rather be chatting with their mates about stuff at their level – especially when they only get chance to catch up with them once a month.

Clubs obviously have a role to play but it's not just a one-way street. Potential members also have to have some resilience and enthusiasm and a willingness to persevere. It's just like any relationship – work is required on both sides.

My ME work started as a way to create cheapskate tooling for my WT hobby – I certainly recognize what you say about WT equipment and lathes being more expensive. Perhaps it's because vendors can get away with those prices because most WT's can't make it themselves?

Jon

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

What part does the club website play in attracting new members and is there an age bias in that, and supporting current members? Would Facebook or Twitter be better, a necessary add on, anything else? Or a blog?
How often do you look at your club website, or another club's website?

We know lots of people are out there buying these new imported and used advertised lathes so what are they doing if not joining the hobby? Not all are joining clubs so do they hobby away quietly or do they give up and let the lathe rust like the trainers and Fitbit that seemed a good idea at the time?

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Hi Bazyle,

I think that an up to date website is needed in case someone wants to find a local club but it's no panacea.

A national parent body or other central resource helps a lot here (see the AWGB website here **LINK**) because otherwise how does someone know where to look – be it www, facebook or twitter.

Perhaps ME and MEW or this forum could bring together a directory of clubs and societies if there is no parent national body?

Jon

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

A list of clubs would be simple to compile, but would never be complete, and keeping it up to date a nightmare. Club officers change often, and even locations. Facilities, tracks, loco accommodation, workshops, it could become a full time job.

Geoff

[Phil StevensonParticipant @philstevenson54758]

Woodturning may have an advantage in that there is a very active national body, the AWGB, a mine of info on most (but not all) UK and international woodturning clubs. Most clubs I know of have active websites that are always flagged up at public events etc. The old saying about advertising probably applies, half the effort is wasted, but you never know which half. But maybe enough specifically about woodturning. Is there a problem attracting new blood to our hobbies? Yes, and I suspect there always has been and always will be. Attracting new blood is a journey, not a destination. I still think many newbies' first step would be to seek out like minded enthusiasts who will provide help, advice, inspiration and tea and biscuits; it helps greatly if clubs, societies and masters of the art etc do a bit of showing off and opening their doors to potential new hobbyists.

[James AlfordParticipant @jamesalford67616]

Posted by Phil Stevenson on 28/03/2017 08:30:27:

……….visits to my local ME club have been pretty dire. A couple of sideways glances at me, no attempt at welcoming me, monosyllabic answers when I started a conversation, no-one asked me about my interests or experience

I confess that this is much the same as I experienced when I tried a club in the town where I used to live and on a model engineering course that I did. Admittedly, this was a number of years back, but it made me reluctant to try clubs again, even though it did not put me off trying to do model engineering.

For me, the helpfulness and general openness of sites like this have helped no end to address things that I would previously have tried to learn at a club. That said, I might contact the club near and try again as I have not been there yet.

James.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

It is a pity some people have had a negative experience in visiting a club, and seem to be the only ones reporting their experience. I have visited clubs in 3 continents and always received an immediate welcome. Even got a free lunch from one in Melbourne. There are sometimes a few people who are a bit gruff in their manner or have difficulty in talking to strangers, just like in any cross section of society so you need to approach with a friendly smile and say "This is my first visit here please can you direct me to an officer of the club".

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

Well there is a list of clubs here… **LINK**

No idea whether it's up to date or not.

Jon

[Matt CParticipant @mattc]

Lists of clubs can be found here:

Southern Federation of Model Engineering Societies **LINK**

Midland Federation of Model Engineers **LINK**

Northern Association of Model Engineers **LINK**

MattC

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

I think if we are to encourage young hobbyists we need to move away from the idea of traditional ME clubs that concentrate on steam models.

Something more like Makerspace or Fablab is more likely to attract youngsters. Perhaps we should try to encourage those outfits to introduce a bit more metalwork machining? Or for existing ME clubs to modernise and introduce CNC, 3D printing, computers, electronics, etc.?

Russell.

[Jim CahillParticipant @jimcahill55556]

My sons learned to use machine tools etc when they were very young. When they were old enough to look for an apprenticeship they went for a couple of interviews. They didn't want to be servants to the clean automated boxed in CNC production units they were shown. So they set up on their own and have done very well for themselves so far. They have variety in their work, they travel around, they set their own prices. They have control.

Why should anyone want to enslave themselves to the production world? There are still some excellent opportunities as technicians in the University Sector, and I wish I had been able to spend my life in that world. The pay is not the best, but the flexibility and creative opportunity can be tremendous.

If manufacturers want creative people, they ought to provide a creative environment. I'm sure some of them do that already, but I imagine they will remain few while accountants rule the world.

I have offered the opportunity of student placements many times, but so far nobody has shown interest in a voluntary position.

Horses and water.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Things have changed over the years, Percival Marshall's magazine started as"The Model Engineer and Amateur Electrician" A journal of mechanics and electricity for amateurs and students.

A number of clubs have called themselves Model and Experimental, presumably to get away from just building and driving model steam locomotives.

Ian S C

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I have turned up to a few clubs, usually pre-arranged, but sometimes I've arrived and the people there had no idea I was coming. Other times I have just seen a track (e.g. Eachills Wood) and popped my head around the gate and said hello.

I have always had a warm welcome and I can honestly say that while being MEW editor may provide something to talk about and make it easier to get a look around the club workshop, my impression is that I haven't been given particularly privileged treatment. On all my visits I have met people who haven't got a clue who I am but they are always up for a talk.

I do think the fact that I'm not exactly shy may help, I suspect that some people's negative experiences are partly the awkwardness resulting from both parties not being sure what to talk about.

It's probably a good idea for clubs to have a simple procedure for welcome potential new members. In no particular order something like:

Introduce yourself

Ask for their details and main area of interest (and write them down).

Give them a list of forthcoming events and a membership form!

Ask if they have any experience, area novice or are just someone 'finding out more'.

Ask if they have brought anything along – they may well have a model or something else in the car they would like to show off or ask questions about, but are not sure if they should mention it.

If a beginner offer them a spare back issue of ME or MEW!

Briefly explain the setup and any important safety rules – tell them where the loo is and that they are welcome to use it.

If it's a busy event (e.g. public running) tell them a safe place to observe from (e.g. beside the steam up area) and tell them not to be afraid to ask questions, but to be aware that people will need to keep an eye on their locos and will be eager to get on the track.

If at an indoor event try and involve them in a discussion with a small group, don't be afraid to leave them alone, but pop back after a while, or ask another member or two to have a word with them.

If interested in locos and some are running see if it's possible for them to get a ride.

Introduce them to a couple of other people, even if just to say "This is Jim, he looks after our signalling" or "Bob is our welding guru"…

Offer a cup of tea or coffees (if possible).

Pass the details on to the club secretary who will make sure they get sent some further information by post or email.

My big tip for people visiting a club for the first time is BE INTERESTED! If you just lurk in the background, people will assume you want to be left alone. Approach people and ask open questions 'Is this your model?' begs for a yes or no answer. Ask 'what is this a model of and what was involved in making it?' or 'How did you get into model engineering?' and you are starting a conversation.

Neil

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