Encouraging new hobbyists

[Allan BParticipant @allanb]

The layer of education is still just about there, but with dwindling numbers of applications, and the government’s policy of every child has to be offered any course they want, a lot of the students coming through are not really capable of going further in any trade, but they have to be passed, so they can progress onto the next level that they shouldn’t pass, but the government says they must pass.

I see it all the time unfortunately, but there is the odd glimmer of hope in the odd student.

Allan

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/03/2017 20:18:03:

**MEW 3 – should we feature the odd short project like this? Something that introduces a range of skills even though the end result isn't a tool?

Absolutely, it's a way to reach out to people and get them involved in the process, I mention that I made my own lathe tool holder to someone and it doesn't mean anything to them, but if I told them I made my own CD rack or hair comb, nail file or page turner and they might pay attention,

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 24/03/2017 21:55:48

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Allan B on 24/03/2017 20:23:55:

I see it all the time unfortunately, but there is the odd glimmer of hope in the odd student.

Allan

I think the government is simply grateful that they're blessed with the luck of having so many to choose from they can pick and choose who they like with a global labour market, it might not be always the case if the birth rate falls through the floor as it inevitably will with wealth, this is why they pay so much attention to it,

because if we don't work to a surplus labour market with many unemployed then the alternative is like from the frying pan into the fire; chronic shortages and wholesale reduction of society. Skills might be important but if you've got no people at all then nothing can happen. This is why the plague brought society to the brink of collapse, the only saving grace was the strong rebound. At a point where you'd expect every man to be for themselves, people did the opposite and helped each other out.

Edited By Michael-w on 24/03/2017 22:07:26

[RainbowsParticipant @rainbows]

Geo-social-politico-econominising aside: more plans using metric units and stock might help. I think most how-to-get-started guides suggest elmers wobbler but how many young people are familiar with BA and inch or have the tooling for it.

[Allan BParticipant @allanb]

Got to agree with Rainbows, I am 40 so not exactly young, and I struggle with decimal imperial measurements, when I went to school it was all metric, and the only imperial we did was down to fractions.

Since getting into modelling I have really struggled to find any plans in metric.

Allan

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Talking to one club at Ally Pally they are solving two problems in one go. They have to run their track in a public park but not all members are helping. They get teenagers who like 'playing trains' to help. These kids are not necessarily into models or machining but like the group/team activity and 'being important' as railway officials in public. A few will get into more of the hobby and others will be primed for maybe twenty years later.

That's just the large locos side of the hobby.

ME used to cater for model boats at one time. This is a lower cost entry point for model making and after an electric version a steam plant can be the introduction to metalworking.
So ME should produce a series of designs for small oscillators that do not need a lathe.

BTW population is not a problem. 40% do non-jobs like marketing, advertising, gambling, sport, TV, etc that are not necessary for actual human survival. We can all do extra work if needed by not spending time on hobbies.

[Trevor WrightParticipant @trevorwright62541]

Todays youngsters are just as interested in making things but there are few activities around that allow them to use/show the results.

Robot Wars was mentioned earlier and I have been involved for 18 years, I am on tomorrow btw, and the number of old boys like me are confined to "Dad and Son" teams. Most participants start as students building featherweight, 13.6kg machines, and due to the revival of the show are now making their first heavyweights. The appeal of this show is like the cooking shows mentioned earlier, youngsters see others their age doing it and think I can do that.

Steam and vintage cars appeal to the older generation whereas the youngsters want racing bikes and some form of extreme sport that we grow out of as the bones start to stiffen up….

Much as I like model engineering shows static displays get tedious if you cannot appreciate the difficulty in making it as youngsters do. Ally Pally show invited Robot Wars to put on a small display recently and the most enjoyable, and busy, section was where we got the kids to make their own cardboard robot with glue and sellotape and have a Sumo competition. I am not saying that is what we have to do, but we need to step back from our traditional superbly built show mentality and involve the kids in activities they can do easily.

My two penneth anyway…..stands back to be shot down…..

Trevor

PS, on tomorrows show there is a young lad, 21, who built his machine from laser cut parts which had been drawn in cad and is self taught. The youngsters have the drive, but they need to be guided to something that excites them.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Excellent points, Trevor

I shall be cheering you tomorrow [from the armchair]

MichaelG.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I think you have made some good points Trevior, as have others.

The 'tools and techniques' of robot making (or page-turner making) are fair game for MEW if anyone involved wants to write something up.

Perhaps some single-part construction articles focused on the techniques involved would be good? They could use things that aren't models, but are practical – less overlap with ME and more likely to appeal.

A couple that come to mind are:

Airgun target/pellet trap (I keep meaning to make one of these, perhaps someone can show me how!)

Weather sensors (e.g. making an anemometer or wind vane that will stand up to years of weather that produces a suitable output for an arduino/basic stamp/Rpi etc)

How to plan and make working mechanisms – not just useful for the workshop but also robotics, vehicles.

I'm reminded of an Australian chap who has built a steel 'Iron Man' costume and solved loads of challenges such as fitting a worm gear/bowden cable drive for the visor, tackled loads of sheet metal work including learning to weld thin sheet, adapting all sorts of electronic bits…

Neil

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

for all the talk on new hobbyists I think we ought to have an article on what appears to be discouraging old hobbyists too

Michael W

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I'm not convinced that Model Engineering should be used to encourage youngsters into manufacturing.

That's because, like it or not, the UK is a post industrial society. Countries that earn a living by making things are not nice places to live; apart from pollution and health issues, manufacturing jobs are low-pay jobs. It's hard to profit from knocking out widgets in competition with developing economies with cheap labour, especially when those economies also have access to modern manufacturing methods.

Before criticising what the 'yoof' are being taught be aware that 'non-jobs' in the Service Sector are responsible for 78% of the economy. Industry produces less than 10% of UK wealth, and it won't be paying our pensions! The main thrust of UK Industry has changed too: modern engineering in the Western world is primarily high-end. It does not need armies of highly skilled iron-moulders, lathe operators and bottom-knockers, rather the emphasis is on brains, very likely with the intent to outsource production abroad.

Many years ago my parents took me to see a miniature steam railway in Somerset. (Anyone know where it was?) I was impressed, but I didn't do anything about it. But the interest stayed with me for half a century and now I have a garage full of swarf. The seed was planted but it took a long time to mature.

I do think there's an opportunity to engage youngsters earlier though. There is huge interest in Computing, Electronics, Quadcopters, Gaming, RC, Robotics, 3D printing, CAD, and CNC. These are all activities that can be enriched by access to a lathe and a milling machine.

This highlights a different problem. Most workshop experts don't have the skills needed to engage with other technologies, being happier restoring a Model T instead of hacking an Engine Management Unit. Possibly what we have to do is meet youth half-way by visibly applying our skills to their interests. Robot Wars is an excellent example.#

I'm optimistic about the future of Model Engineering. Old ME magazines often contain letters from elderly men bewailing the loss of skills and the ruin that will inevitably result. If you happen to be in your eighties now, you were an undisciplined seat slashing yob, much prone to acts of senseless violence, only interested in girls and motorbikes, for whom there was no hope whatsoever. And as for those hippies now in their seventies: drug crazed perverts to a man.

Dave

# Late thought: a steam-punk  Robot Wars contender would be something very special!

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 25/03/2017 10:33:27

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

And god help us after Brexit as no-one is teaching youfs that to tighten a nut, the spanner(???) turns clockwise. Seems that only the immigrants are able to build and mend things.

Regards Ian.

[John FlackParticipant @johnflack59079]

Reading the above posts thoughtfully I wonder if there is a problem in the way "we" present our selves to the wider world. I suspect that most workshops are kept locked, and offsprings are under a death threat never to enter. I wonder how many of us would offer the local schools access to our workshops for the educational experience which we no longer wish to be on offer at school. The loss of workshops in schools also has the effect of excluding those who wish to attend "evening classes".The public perception of "our" activites is within a spectrum from craftsmen………to eccentrics. As I mentioned in an earlier the constant use of abbreviations may deter new entrants.

I have just clicked on to DOWNDRAUGHT TABLE expecting to find info. on aero wing design, so it's not just abbreviations!!!!!!

Teh spelling does not help off coarse😡

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

The loss of workshops in schools also has the effect of excluding those who wish to attend "evening classes".

Yes, but think of how many warehouse coats, safety boots, full face visors and padded gloves the local authorities are saving so the little darlins don't hurt themselves. Big savings from the legal eagles on compo claims too.

Regards Ian.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Emotionally, I agree with much of what has been written above. However, more logically, there at least 4 companies in the UK making, I assume, a reasonable living selling lathes and milling machines to the home worker. It seems a pretty fair bet that there are more machine tools in home workshops than there ever has been. There are 3 national magazines serving the market instead of just one and there at least 4 major model engineering exhibitions instead of just the "THE" ME show. The emphasis may have moved from ride on steam locomotives but it seems that the interest in engineering is still here.

Rod

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

Surely, interesting beginners (Of whatever age) is completely different from admiring the wonderful models at exhibitions? As an ordinary mortal, brought up on Meccano and electronics, and not a drug-addled ex-teenager, I derive great enjoyment from making projects which may or may not work, from basic components or materials. My abilities are not high, my patience and stamina are short and I have lots of projects to complete. Finishing a project is very satisfying, but mine will never win prizes. Exhibitions are for marvelling at the skills of others, lectures, awards, meeting readers and old friends and visiting new locations. Getting into the Mens' Sheds movement, robot wars, go-karts, i/c AND electric, makers etc., all have possibilities, but for novices to visit a model engineering exhibition may well discourage them permanently!

Geoff

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 25/03/2017 09:28:45:

Airgun target/pellet trap (I keep meaning to make one of these, perhaps someone can show me how!)

As is usual these days, you can't make it for the price **LINK**

Works for me to zero the sights on my rat gun.

Rod

Edited By Roderick Jenkins on 25/03/2017 18:55:18

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 25/03/2017 10:30:51:

I'm not convinced that Model Engineering should be used to encourage youngsters into manufacturing.

That's because, like it or not, the UK is a post industrial society. Countries that earn a living by making things are not nice places to live; apart from pollution and health issues, manufacturing jobs are low-pay jobs. It's hard to profit from knocking out widgets in competition with developing economies with cheap labour, especially when those economies also have access to modern manufacturing methods.

Dave

I'm not trying to be picky here but just wondering, in the UK, we can forget about quite quickly just how many people there are here, for an island in particular, it's a lot!

We probably do have a good number of people making and selling stuff, but proportionally speaking then, a change of terms, we don't have many. Whereas a small African country or island in the far east has a high proportion of manufacture but not anything like 60-70 million people within it.

It's funny that for something like manufacturing, that apparently only marginally contributes to the overall economy, we care about it so much, that we're horrified at the prospect of it disappearing from here.

Surely then, we aren't just interested in how much money an activity will get us, but also if we have the benefit of material value, and ownership of the production and creation processes.

Michael W

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Roderick Jenkins on 25/03/2017 18:52:55:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 25/03/2017 09:28:45:

Airgun target/pellet trap (I keep meaning to make one of these, perhaps someone can show me how!)

As is usual these days, you can't make it for the price **LINK**

Works for me to zero the sights on my rat gun.

Rod

It's more about making a practice piece that has a practical use rather than saving a few quid.

Neil

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Understood, there's plenty of info on the link – should be straightforward for a man with a welder

But it sort of ties in with a couple of the other posts: I don't think you could get anywhere near that price making it in the UK. That sort of thing is best left to low wage economies while we concentrate on the high intellect stuff – until the rest of the world catches up…

Rod

[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/03/2017 01:36:34:

These people are potentially the next generation of model and hobby engineers – how can we encourage them? How do our younger forum members feel about this? What would have encouraged you or could help a young person you know to get involved?

More emphasis on engineering and less tunnel vision on that which is to be engineered might tempt in some younger participants who aren't solely looking for a way to build something steam powered with wheels.

– Nick

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Nick Hulme on 26/03/2017 17:17:55:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/03/2017 01:36:34:

These people are potentially the next generation of model and hobby engineers – how can we encourage them? How do our younger forum members feel about this? What would have encouraged you or could help a young person you know to get involved?

More emphasis on engineering and less tunnel vision on that which is to be engineered might tempt in some younger participants who aren't solely looking for a way to build something steam powered with wheels.

That's pretty much the formula for MEW already – tools and techniques, not models.

Neil

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael-w on 25/03/2017 19:35:19:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 25/03/2017 10:30:51:

I'm not convinced that Model Engineering should be used to encourage youngsters into manufacturing.

That's because, like it or not, the UK is a post industrial society. Countries that earn a living by making things are not nice places to live; apart from pollution and health issues, manufacturing jobs are low-pay jobs. It's hard to profit from knocking out widgets in competition with developing economies with cheap labour, especially when those economies also have access to modern manufacturing methods.

Dave

…

It's funny that for something like manufacturing, that apparently only marginally contributes to the overall economy, we care about it so much, that we're horrified at the prospect of it disappearing from here.

Surely then, we aren't just interested in how much money an activity will get us, but also if we have the benefit of material value, and ownership of the production and creation processes.

Michael W

A really good point Michael. We Brits have every reason to be proud of our industrial heritage. It created the modern world.

But circumstances change. The market for steam locomotives and Dreadnought Battleships has evaporated. People don't want to spend their lives down a coal mine or in a factory. Its important to adapt because nothing lasts for ever and no-one owes us a living. We can't feed our children and look after the old folk unless we generate wealth. Unfortunately that probably means slaughtering a herd or two of sacred cows.

If only it were that easy. Not having a comprehensive industrial base is very dangerous in time of international tension. Then, exactly as you say, 'the benefit of material value, and ownership of the production and creation processes' becomes absolutely vital.

Dave

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 26/03/2017 18:04:28:

Posted by Nick Hulme on 26/03/2017 17:17:55:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/03/2017 01:36:34:

…

…

That's pretty much the formula for MEW already – tools and techniques, not models.

Neil

No models? Not even topless on Page 3? I'd settle for the Editor in a wet tee-shirt draped over his Super Adept…

[DustyParticipant @dusty]

There are a number of points raised in the posts that I would like to cover.

Like most Clubs my own suffers from lack of young recruits. It is apparent that to get new members especially the very young (teenagers) is difficult. There are many calls on prospective members and those that have recently joined, and as has been pointed out finance is one of the largest. Youngsters find the opposite sex more appealing than pulling bits of swarf from their fingers. I know as I had a break of about 10yrs from my late teens until I was about 30.

I, along with some of my colleagues have been working with a local School, with a view to encourage students to look at engineering as a career It is only in the last couple of months that the teaching staff have come to realize what we have to offer and can help with projects to enhance the syllabus. We looked at The Great Egg Race as a project, and when this was shown to the teachers they saw that it dovetailed into the syllabus.

A word of warning. It has been mentioned inviting youngsters into your workshop. Do not do this unless you have a CRB disclosure certificate, you could be breaking the law. I forgot to mention the School we help at is an all girls school, even so we always make sure that there are always two of us with the students.

We have found that some of the girls have responded well to some simple model making, whilst others find the process boring. Try going to your local Secondary School and speak with one of the STEM( Science Technology Engineering and Maths) teachers and offer your services. I would point out tat you need about a dozen of you to even contemplate this. This is due to Doctors, Hospital appointments and illness due to our age plus a variety of other reasons.

.

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