Encouraging new hobbyists

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

In a conversation today the topic of university engineering students came up.

It seems that some employers are frustrated that new graduates have lots of theoretical skill, but few practical machining skills – and this lack of experience can limit their ability to come up with good, workable design solutions.

On the other hand, many undergraduates get frustrated at always working on the theoretical side of things and would like to get their hands dirty. Some get round this through 'maker' activities like 3D printing and embedded electronics but apparently there are many who would like to do real machining, but either don't get the opportunities or don't know where to find mentors or how to get started. It's not helped as student digs aren't always the best places to set up a workshop (mind you the table in my bedroom as a final year biology student looked a bit like an electronics lab!)

In the old days some employers encouraged apprentices to form model engineering, aeroplane or boat modelling clubs, for example.

These people are potentially the next generation of model and hobby engineers – how can we encourage them? How do our younger forum members feel about this? What would have encouraged you or could help a young person you know to get involved?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

like so many hobbies, ours tends to work out a bit expensive. These columns rave on about CNC etc, and its great if you have the money but let us not forget what WAS possible with just a lathe and a few hand tools. Its the same with health and safety, boiler inspections etc – Yes, a great idea but at a great expense which is hardly affordable to a beginner.
We have the same problem of getting younger people to enjoy vintage cars, steam boating ets etc – its all darned expensive.
I think the way forward is for those who have to share what they have (yes all your precious machines).
obH

[Tractor manParticipant @tractorman]

A difficult question to answer I suspect.
This hobby of ours can be so expensive to get started in that many young people cannot afford to buy the necessary machinery. It certainly took me many years to be in a position to equip myself. Aside from that basic education in schools seems to be non existant. I was taught machining at school in the early 80s but even then we were not allowed to use the shaper or horizontal mill as they were so dangerous. The beginning of health and safety overkill. I recall doing my metal work O level exam turning on the Lathe when the Shop window was covered in blood as a fellow pupil ran past with a partially severed hand. Outside the Shop though,as he had been pushed through a plate glass window in the gym wall.
So maybe the risk averse nature of our society is partly to blame. Or is it that you can’t machine things on a smart phone. Lol

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

We have the same problem with vintage bikes, very few younger members have the interest or funds to participate.

I mourn the passing of proper engineering apprenticeships like I did in the early 1960s, hands on the machinery is a wonderful way to learn and most of the lads with me during my apprenticeship where clever enough to outstrip the average graduate. I would not mind teaching someone to use my machines and making them available on occasion.

[Allan BParticipant @allanb]

I agree that it would be great to encourage more young people in to hobbies no matter what they are, I was only speaking about this with my dad last night, but cost and the availability of electronic entertainment, against the cost and space required for a workshop dose seem to be a limiting factor for a lot of people, and from working with young people (16-20) most of them would rather spend there time playing a computer game, than actually getting out and doing anything, I don’t think they realise the coordination skills that these computer games give them are transferable to so many things.

Allan

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

There's so much choice out there now that there are no longer any restrictions if you really want to try something out, you can do almost anything now, the only limiting factor is cash

Places like ebay mean you can access previously unavailable kit from china to warrington, and often at knock-down prices (For example that Murad Bormilathe recently)

Modern kit isn't really made to be tinkered with, take cars for example when we were young, compared with cars now, so that culture of getting your hands dirty and tweaking stuff has been dying out for the younger generations

The makers route is probably the next "big thing" in our hobby, 3D printing etc, it's relatively clean and you let the gadget do the graft

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

Was model engineering ever a young persons game? You need money, space and you also need lots of time – things that many people just don't have. Hobbies like vintage cars / bikes are great but costs can be massive and you need loads of space to work on an old car.

The whole 'maker' movement is very big now and is just as creative, challenging and rewarding – robotics, 3D printing, electronics and programming – and crucially sharing projects via the internet. You can get started on that very cheaply and with little space, kids can do it in their bedrooms. This is also very relevant to many jobs – mainly IT – in away that model engineering no longer is in this country.

I think there can be a tendency to say "in my day we were out in the shed with a lathe – young people today just sit in their rooms playing computer games" – my guess is that young people today are just as creative and hardworking as they ever were, just in different ways.

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

I'm not sure that expense is the problem. People happily lash out on loud audio gear for the car, or games software. Amateur radio is similar, 'I can't afford a new transceiver'. Why not start small? A handful of components makes a simple transmitter or receiver, just as a few bits of brass makes a little oscillating engine. 'LBSC' built his first engine from a coffee tin, and jampot lids for wheels. Or buy second hand. Working, obsolete items still do the job they were designed for. The top selling new radio transceiver is about the same price as the top selling new mini-lathe. There's no need to go for a top-of-the-range product to begin with.

Geoff

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

What happened to "Youth clubs" – its a similar problem. Our village has a "Fete committee" – again we compete against these digital games and the TV / DVD. Perhaps we need "Youth Mechanic" evenings.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Neil,

This is not a new phenomenon, back in the 60s, Graduates were not that much better, many considered it below them to become involved with the practical side. An actual quote "I worked damn hard for my degree, I don't intended to do work at that intensity again". Needless to say he did not last long.

Much later in the 90s whilst visiting a major national organisation, it was "they, (the new graduates) are very good at designing something, but many such designs are impossible to make". This was before the advent of more sophisticated 3D modeling, which can greatly assist in such matters, but still require some fundamental practical aspects to be observed.

There is nothing like "hands on" to educate the brain, whatever the subject area.

[John FlackParticipant @johnflack59079]

I wonder if the answer is a little closer to hand. Do magazines like ME and MEW actively encourage youngsters in the world of models and engineering? I remember being allowed by my parents to switch from the Meccano Magazine to Model engineer, it seemed very "grown up" at the time, it was like doing "Things" with real tools which had a practical hobby purpose. I now do not subscribe to either magazine. The titles and purpose have been reversed with engineering dominating modelling. I have in recent times thumbed through some new issues, with a post graduate level of education and professional qualifications the content is approaching incomprehensible. The constant and multiple use of abbreviations like TPI,DTI! DRO, QC, WHITWORTH BSF! METRIC,IMPERIALS X Y and Z axis. To make an analogy it's like telling a potential Christian that he has to study hagiology in Greek before he can get started. The newbie is deterred by the content, and thinking it too complicated puts his copy down on the bottom shelf and examines the top shelf which is something he can understand

I wonder if editors understand that increasing complexity of content may actually lead to reduced sales and/or reduce the interest generally, and end up with an elite group whose knowledge is so great that they no longer a magazine at all

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

Expense of equipment is a bit of a red herring. My first lathe represented about 3 month's pay, but nowadays a new Chinese mini lathe can be had for possibly less than a week's pay.

One of the problems is that younger (20s or so) people who may be interested in model engineering or whatever frequently get hitched and start a family. That's when the money and time disappears. Only when the family has grown does the time re-appear and the bank balance look positive. That's when we might get people interested.

I never did any practical work in school or during my working life, stumbling on model engineering almost by accident later in life. I did have a couple of 'interesting' cars but the thought of getting a lathe to make parts for them never occurred to me.

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[Mark Simpson 1Participant @marksimpson1]

If you(we) want to get young people involved then exciting is probably more important than historical accurate at least to begin with. The number of young people teams entering Robot Wars is huge, and that has a lot of engineering challenges of every discipline….

As well as "playing" in my workshop I'm proud to have been involved with Scouts and Guides for 30+ years, quite a bit of engineering has appeared there over the years, (levers, pulley etc. in pioneering)

We even built a few of these over a winter term, everything done with 15mm pipe fittings and 1/8" welding wire, except for the piston which we cast with Resin in the cylinder
http://npmccabe.tripod.com/woodwheeler.htm

Being open, to questions and interest, not too much rivet counting and exciting is surely the way to move it down a generation…. Cost is not always as much of a factor as you think; do you know how much a new Iphone is?

Just my thoughts…
Mark

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

I know that we probably have mixed feelings about the role of TV but in the dim and distant past we had boffins like Heinz Wolf, who were even prepared to dress the part, on the telly hosting programs like the Great Egg Race showing how much fun could be had tinkering about with stuff. There are no programmes like that any more on mainstream telly are there? Instead we get programmes like Gogglebox – people watching telly to see other people watching telly – I ask you!

My instinct is that most of the problem is one of complete ignorance that our hobby and practical hobbies like it even exist, let alone have any value, in these days when schools can't provide exposure to engineering, practical problems and practical skills because of an over-emphasis on exam results and a lack of time and money.

Jon

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

.

'Modern' media.!

It's seen as 'cool' by the younger generations.

So such things as well produced youtube videos of projects and builds. Or even photographic slide shows upon it of such as good quality video is time consuming.

Facebook page linking said videos, photographs and brief descriptions. – Not too complicated as all we can do is plant a seed. That will not be done if information baffles and confuses. The reason people like Jamie Oliver are so popular is that when watched a large proportion of the population thinks "Hey I could probably do that." Where as years ago TV chefs liked to create the illusion that good cooking was a dark art and witchcraft. – That has changed. It's considered cool and popular.

But its no good if they don't know about it or see it. ……….. How to promote it I have no idea.?

Just because many see it as old fashioned does not always mean it is.! I was talking with Andrew Johnson only last night and we briefly discussed how steam was still a very, very relevant technology providing the electricity we use and nuclear submarines. Many youth think you simply plug a wire into a lump of uranium and electricity flows. Or stick a shaft into it and it magically turns a propeller. It's not that they are not interested, they just don't think they need to know. i.e. they have not had that seed of interest planted.

I remember about 10 years ago when my son Oliver was about 14 he came with me to the local radio club. A chap called George Fayre ( G3OGQ ) was sending morse code. He thought that was majorly uber cool and was genuinely interested and George was keen to show him. ………………… Then others told him how difficult it was shaking their heads and giving condescending intakes of breath. He quickly lost any interest.

Nick

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I'm of the 90's generation and I can think of no reason why I wouldn't want to do this! It's so interesting to me but I also appreciate others may not like it.

I was lucky enough to be introduced to it through necessity and then the second unlikelihood of actually enjoying it. I then spent the money I earned working on this.

I might add there are also a lot of other distractions to enjoy these days too. I know a lot of geeky people who enjoy the digital side of making which is also a skill that takes dedication, fair play to that but I do wonder if they would like this too.

The time I've seen some of them pour into animation, digital models and artwork, there is definitely potential and no question of capability if they wanted to.

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 24/03/2017 13:06:04

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

This is a multi faceted issue! The pecieved decline of model engineering, changes to lifestyles due to the economy and technology and changes to working practices are education are all factors.

Considering university education as that was the original question; The number of universities and consequently the number of students following degrees has exploded exponentially over the last 40 years. 40 years ago there were few universities and when I left school out of my whole year I think there was only one student who went on to university. Fast forward to the present and many colleges and polytechnics have evolved into universities and there is an expectation in schools that students will progress to university! 40 years ago graduates were the academic elite and degrees were prized, now it is the normal expectation that students will progress from A levels to a degree. The increased accessibility to university education has not necessarily lead to a higher number of highly educated graduates! Further education has become big business! Traditionally graduates were for white collar jobs, they were not expected to do be intimately involved with manual labour.

Employment; Heavy Engineering has declined in the UK, economic pressures have dictated that manufacturing has become automated (machines being cheaper to run than people) so there is less demand for people with manual skills, manual machining (which has been the main stay of model engineering from its inception) is in decline and now has become a premium in jobbing and repair shops. Most employers from what I see these days even in apprenticeships concentrate on giving apprentices the relevant skills applicable to their sphere of business and not necessarily a complete rounded bottom up training program (again dictated by economics). 40 years ago employers took on far more apprentices than they required and there was no gaurantee of a job at the end, this gave the employer the ability to cherry pick from the bunch.

Perceived decline in model engineering; From my own society over the last 40 years the demographic has changed. When I joined my local club at 16 the average age of members was around 50, today it is approaching 65. We are still getting new members but they are people approaching retirement age. If you looked at occupations little has changed, years ago members actually employed in engineering or with formal training in engineering only accounted for around 20% of the total, the remainder were bank managers, dentists, media people etc. Today new members are less likely to be or have been professionally involved in engineering but they are starting their interest later. The few members we gain in the 40 to 65 age group are now most likely to buy a ready built, ready to run locomotive (steam and electric) or traction engine. Our membership numbers peaked in the 80's at around 60 members and has remained fairly steady around that number since. So the evidence says overall the interest has not declined but has changed, new members are much less likely to have or aspire too a reasonably equipped workshop.

So to return to the original point re university students and practical experience; traditional universities never churned out fitter / turners they churned out managers, designers and concept people. If employers now are finding the products of universities do not have the skills they require then industry needs to address this with universities and examination bodies to tailor the courses to meet their needs. It seems to me universities these days are run by academics and accountants with the objectives of generating as much revenue as possible rather than meeting a genuine need of employers. I also think from what I read and see that universities have reached or are close to reaching their peak and due to the rising costs on students to gain a university education and levels of debt students leave with there will be a decline in student numbers and potentially a decline in the number of universities. My conclusion is students in terms of what they are taught and employers in terms of what they would like their new graduate employees to know are not being best served by universities that have the objective of clawing in cash and tailoring courses and facilities to what they think is best, rather than what is really required. Interesting times!

Paul.

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

Where does a young teen get their inspiration from? I watched "The Golden Age of Steam Railways", try doing what the fourteen year olds did on there now, you would soon get shut down.

Kids need to learn young what their hands are for. In my day Airfix kits, and balsa planes were easy to get from a multitude of local model shops. Those model shops gave us the inspiration, looking in the window at those large model planes beyond our grasp. Now there are virtually no model shops, all replaced by online virtual shops. How many dads take their kids along to model activities. During our kids formative years many of us are trying to keep a roof over our heads and work accordingly. Most modellers have to let it slide once a family comes along. It is only when money becomes available long term that we return to our past hobbies. But we always look for the cheapest. How long would model engineering last if we didn't know were to get something for nothing or very little. if we had to pay for UK/USA/Australian made items how many of us would continue.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Just a few random thoughts:

My interest in electronics started when there was a children's television programme in the late 1950s on building a one valve radio receiver. I followed the series and built it. It didn't work so I went to the library and started reading about electronics until I understood enough to fix it. That started me on a long term hobby and then university and a carrier.

My interest in mechanical engineering started when, as a student, I bought an Austin Seven and had to learn to understand how to fix it when it (frequently) stopped working. I bought my first lathe, an Edgar, to help me to restore an even older car.

So both hobbies arose from the necessity to fix things. Now we have a throw away society and consumer goods are so cheap that it is often more economical to buy new rather than repair. However a few "repair spaces" are being set up, like "maker spaces" but to fix things. Perhaps they could lead to more interest?

As for our hobbies being too expensive, have you noticed how many kids have the latest iPhones costing more than a Chinese mini-lathe?

Russell.

Edited By Russell Eberhardt on 24/03/2017 14:07:51

Edited By Russell Eberhardt on 24/03/2017 14:08:43

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Posted by Michael-w on 24/03/2017 12:59:33:

I'm of the 90's generation and I can think of no reason why I wouldn't want to do this! It's so interesting to me but I also appreciate others may not like it.

I was lucky enough to be introduced to it through necessity and then the second unlikelihood of actually enjoying it. I then spent the money I earned working on this.

I might add there are also a lot of other distractions to enjoy these days too. I know a lot of geeky people who enjoy the digital side of making which is also a skill that takes dedication, fair play to that but I do wonder if they would like this too.

The time I've seen some of them pour into animation, digital models and artwork, there is definitely potential and no question of capability if they wanted to.

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 24/03/2017 13:06:04

Digital and physical aren't exclusive. My son works in a computer game studio, yet last year he wanted a lathe for his 21st birthday.

Brian

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

Russell, Like you I was an Austin seven servant: got good at repairing punctures and made many parts out of necessity and also experimented in my youth with cat's whisker receivers. Before that it was soapbox cart, episcope, electric motor and other things shown in boy's magazines: you had to find interesting things to do when there was no TV or other distractions.

if I could be young again I think I would find a lot of interest designing and making robots as this is an interesting challenge and would lead to combining computer skills with practical manufacturing using hand and machine tools. However, I think most youngsters need modular component projects that would allow quick results to show achievement at each stage in construction and finish as something "cool". Doesn't have to be a robot war machine! Colin

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by KWIL on 24/03/2017 09:39:59:

Much later in the 90s whilst visiting a major national organisation, it was "they, (the new graduates) are very good at designing something, but many such designs are impossible to make". This was before the advent of more sophisticated 3D modeling, which can greatly assist in such matters, but still require some fundamental practical aspects to be observed.

This is something that came up in the discussion I had. Practical experience of making working mechanisms is very helpful in getting proportions and actions right.

Neil

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I think the layer of education that filled COFE or tech colleges has been stripped out of the system with this quest to give everybody a degree. The City and Guilds and ONC/HNC used to provide practical people with useful academic experience. Oxford University has many workshops but these are run by very skilled people to build the research projects for the academics, so no need to get their hands dirty. Too many politicians have never done a proper job and so have no clue about what we really need to build an economy that works. Industry and commerce persist in not telling the government what they need or if they do the government know best and as usual know sweet FA.

Mike

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I take the point about the need for real 'beginner' articles. One reason for asking is because I'm trying to line up a beginner series and I think that as well as aiming it at 40-somethings and empty nesters getting into the hobby, it should be accessible to people like engineering students and graduates. I don't mean it has to be 'hip hop and happening'*, just that it need to cover the sort of issues and questions they might ask; and perhaps exmple projects like phone holders might go down better than port pourers!**

Neil

*I quote from a serious leaflet of the 1980s aimed at engaging 'young people;' with nature conservation – it also had the great line 'badgers are deeply cool creatures'. I wish I still had a copy.

**MEW 3 – should we feature the odd short project like this? Something that introduces a range of skills even though the end result isn't a tool?

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