EMCO FB2 Head Unit

[BountyboyParticipant @bountyboy]

Hello,

I have just purchased a very clean EMCO FB2 milling machine. The previous owner told me it was his father’s machine and it hadn’t been used for about twenty years.

When I collected the machine the head/column had already been dismantled and the table removed from the base.

Back at home I reassembled the miller and reconnected the wiring to the motor. On start up I noticed that when operating the six speed head the three slower speeds appear to be going faster than the three higher speed settings. Also curiously, when set at the fastest speed the spindle can be stopped from rotating by hand pressure.

Am I missing something obvious or do I need to delve deeper? I plan to change the oil (Castrol Hyspin AWS 46) as a precautionary step and see if that makes any difference, if not I’ll remove the motor and top plate and try to see if anything is amiss.

Any advice from other EMCO FB2 users would be very appreciated.

[BountyboyParticipant @bountyboy]

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Is this the Single phase FB2?

So when the left speed selector is in the left position (S) the three speeds selected by the right selector (I,II,III) are higher than the speeds when the left selector is to the right (H) ?

That cannot be….Even if the gearbox was dis-assembled and reassembled 'incorrectly', it is not possible to transpose the low / high range select gear to make it do that!

I suspect that this is a single phase motor, and suspect the running capacitor is dead – gone low capacitance.

The fact that in high gear you can stall it by hand reinforces my belief. I believe this is also the cause of the 'low speed in high gear' – in low range the reduced motor torque ( due to the dud Capacitor) is still enough to run through the gearbox and drive the spindle near true speed. The high range load is to much for the motor – it has not got enough torque, and so does not achieve the correct speed.

Change the Capacitor..

Joe

[BountyboyParticipant @bountyboy]

Many thanks for your swift reply Joe. It makes sense what you're saying, it is a single phase machine and it has been stood along time so the capacitor may have deteriorated.

Do you know where I could obtain a replacement capacitor from?

Many thanks for your help.

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Sorry, no..I live in Namibia so cannot help I fear.. Sure someone from your region can advise. The capacitor value is on the body of the capacitor – the capacitor is in the base of the mill – you need to remove the cover on the right hand side of the base , 6 screws, 3 top and 3 bottom. Unplug from the mains before doing so! The capacitor fastens to that side cover.

Joe

[BountyboyParticipant @bountyboy]

Thanks Joe,

I’ve seen some of your previous FB2 posts and I now know I need a 8uF 420V capacitor. I’ll source one locally and hopefully it’ll do the trick.

Many thanks again for you help. My EMCO FB2 adventure begins!

Paul

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

Just in case you don't know, make sure you get a 'motor run' capacitor, not a 'motor start' capacitor. The latter are electrolytic and will fail after very little running time. The former are usually metallised polypropylene. They are cheap, and available from electric motor suppliers, re-winders, electrical wholesalers, RS Components, Farnell (now called Element 14 – I think), etc.

Edited By Kiwi Bloke on 07/10/2021 00:57:36

[BountyboyParticipant @bountyboy]

Hello Kiwi Bloke,

Thanks for the info, no I was not aware of the difference between ‘motor run’ & ‘motor start’ capacitors. As I mentioned I’ve just bought this mill and am on a steep learning curve!

Many thanks for taking the time to reply I really appreciate the input from the forum members, invaluable.

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

You have a very nice Mill in the FB2 – some don't like it because of the round column, which at full Z extension does exhibit some lack of rigidity if milling heavily, such as with the Shell end mill. However, don't let that put you off – that machine is VERY capable – I have done a lot of work on mine ( I have 3….) that may have been thought not practical. It is an accurate machine when set up sweetly, and stays set with very smooth slide action. It is very well made. Enjoy it! Did you obtain just the machine or some tooling/accessories as well?

Joe

[BountyboyParticipant @bountyboy]

Hello Joe,

I used to work on Swiss/German machines so I know how good the quality is. I've read a lot of reviews and forum comments about the FB2 and it's taken me about a year to find this one, luckily it was close to where I live.

Like you I think they're great machines and am looking forward to getting it up and running. The machine has been in storage for a long time and there appears to be a thin layer of coolant on the paint work, do you know what is the best way to clean it off without damaging the paint work?

Unfortunately there was not a lot of tooling included in the sale, so I'll have to invest in collets/holders, keyless chuck etc. Looking on eBay the genuine EMCO collets seem very expensive when compared to non branded ones.

I now need to find a good V10-P, proving difficult to find too!

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

Forgive me if you know what follows already – it's not clear from your posts what your level of knowledge and experience is, particularly with Emco gear.

Please do make use of the self-extraction functionality that the screwed cap on the upper end of the spindle provides. I always cringe when people talk about whacking the end of Morse taper tooling to release it from the spindle. And use a draw-bar in the arbour for a drilling chuck. This may mean having to modify a MT-JT arbour, by removing the tang and drilling and tapping for a draw-bar. A previous owner of one of my FB-2 heads obviously didn't, the arbour spun in the taper and it's scored. Emco hardened the spindles, so full rectification means grinding. It's a get-around-to-it-one-day job…

FB-2 spindle motors run hot. Don't worry too much. 'Fraid I don't know their max. allowed temp. Probably 60C is OK. Someone will correct me if that's wrong.

Please make use of the horrible little spindle-holding wrench (if you've got it), to hold the spindle against draw-bar tightening/loosening torque. It's tempting to select lowest speed in the gearbox, to immobilise the spindle, but there's a tufnol gear inside, which is known to strip teeth if abused.

The FB-2 is a great little machine, and, if you've seen Joseph Noci's and Graham Meek's work, you'll see that it's capable of excellent results (when driven properly, of course…). Isn't the V10-P the one with fragile electrical switchgear (made from Unobtainium) on the back of the top of the headstock? You might look for a Maximat 11, again another Emco machine capable of excellent results, as shown by Stefan Gotteswinter on YouTube.

White spirit doesn't seem to attack the paint used by Emco, and gets most crud off.

Genuine Emco collets and collet chucks were made by Schaublin. You get what you pay for.

There's no end of good help and advice on this forum – don't hesitate to ask.

Edited By Kiwi Bloke on 07/10/2021 09:38:24

Edited By Kiwi Bloke on 07/10/2021 09:40:01

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Posted by Kiwi Bloke on 07/10/2021 00:55:58:

Just in case you don't know, make sure you get a 'motor run' capacitor, not a 'motor start' capacitor. The latter are electrolytic and will fail after very little running time. The former are usually metallised polypropylene. They are cheap, and available from electric motor suppliers, re-winders, electrical wholesalers, RS Components, Farnell (now called Element 14 – I think), etc.

Edited By Kiwi Bloke on 07/10/2021 00:57:36

Um, start capacitors are highly unlikely to be electrolytic since the latter get very hot and are likely to explode if connected across AC. What if the motor was jammed when you start so the starter switch doesn't disengage?

Farnell have 8uF run capacitors here. Price up to £6 inc. VAT.

[BountyboyParticipant @bountyboy]

Thanks Kiwi Bloke & John,

All information is very welcome. From the manual I did work out how to remove tooling from the MT2 and yes the manual clearly states never hit the spindle or "this could damage the precision bearings".

The manual does shows two methods of mounting and dismounting tooling: the use of a draw bar or arbors with flat tangs but I appreciate the possibility of the taper spinning and scoring the bore. Best to play safe and modify the MT-JT arbor as you suggest.

On the topic of Collets I think there are normal ER25 ones but the those made by Schaublin are ESX 25.

Thanks too John for the link to Farnell, I'll order one today.

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

I would suggest Power Capacitors in Birmingham **LINK** for a replacement unit, no connection other than a satisfied customer.

John

[BountyboyParticipant @bountyboy]

Thanks John F, I’ll have a look.

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

Have a look here for an operators manual **LINK**

If you want a parts list that may also be there if you search the files or I have one in pdf – message me with your email if you would like it

John

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

Posted by John Haine on 07/10/2021 10:12:39:

Posted by Kiwi Bloke on 07/10/2021 00:55:58:

Just in case you don't know, make sure you get a 'motor run' capacitor, not a 'motor start' capacitor. The latter are electrolytic and will fail after very little running time.

Edited By Kiwi Bloke on 07/10/2021 00:57:36

Um, start capacitors are highly unlikely to be electrolytic since the latter get very hot and are likely to explode if connected across AC. What if the motor was jammed when you start so the starter switch doesn't disengage?

What I said is correct. Start caps are indeed usually low-ESR bipolar electrolytics. They will indeed heat up, when in circuit, which is why they are applicable to low duty-cycle applications only. If the starter switch were to jam closed, the cap would overheat and I'd also worry about the start winding burning out.

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

Posted by Bountyboy on 07/10/2021 11:08:30:

…

The manual does shows two methods of mounting and dismounting tooling: the use of a draw bar or arbors with flat tangs but I appreciate the possibility of the taper spinning and scoring the bore. Best to play safe and modify the MT-JT arbor as you suggest.

The subject of tangs and their purpose has come up on this forum before. They are a safety back-up, to prevent the arbour spinning (hopefully!), should the taper lose grip. In drilling machines – but not milling machines – the tang engages a slot in the spindle, so the arbour can't spin. The spindle is provided with a slot in its side, so a tapered drift can be used to push the arbour out, the drift bearing on the end of the tang. Modified arbours are a GOOD THING!

Edited By Kiwi Bloke on 07/10/2021 21:25:35

[BountyboyParticipant @bountyboy]

Many thanks for everyone’s input. I’ve ordered a new capacitor and oil for the head unit. I’ll let you know how I get on.

Thanks once again,

Paul

[RyddaParticipant @rydda]

Posted by Bountyboy on 07/10/2021 11:08:30:

……… Best to play safe and modify the MT-JT arbor as you suggest.

Drill chuck arbors with draw bar thread are available from ARC among others.

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

To help avoid changing tanged Morse taper twist drill shanks and to get more of a working envelope. I use a selection of Black Smiths drills, as shown above.

That is not to say I don't use standard MT Twist drills, especially if the size falls between my Black Smiths drill range. While I have toyed with the idea of converting these to Drawbar use it would present problems when using them on the Maximat Lathe. Unless I made a screw in Tang, not that this machine has provision in the socket for a tang. The extra length is needed to eject the drill.

Keeping Morse taper shanks free from "Dings" and clean, I use a Lint Free Wipe before inserting any tooling in the Morse taper sockets, is the easiest way to prevent drills spinning. Provided also the socket is free of oil, burr free and clean, there will be no chance of the taper moving. Unless the drill happens to grab due to the wrong cutting angles or over exuberance on the feed.

Regards

Gray,

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If you need Start or Run capacitors, you local motor rewinding shop should be able to provide what you need.

When the capacitor on my compressor failed, a trip to the other side of town provided what was needed, and again for a neighbour's lawnmower. In nboth cases, the wires carried push on connectors (Lucar, in myspeak )Cost? £6

Howard

[BountyboyParticipant @bountyboy]

Hello Howard,

Thanks for the info, I’ve already ordered one from RS Components.

[BountyboyParticipant @bountyboy]

EUREKA 💡!

Hello,

Good news, the FB2 mill is now working correctly. I believe it was a combination of a faulty capacitor and an incorrectly wired motor.

In my quest to sort the speeds issue I removed the motor and took it to B & T Rewinds in B’ham. They did an insulation test on the windings and powered it up on their test bed, all good, no issues. They also showed me how the capacitor should be connected into the circuit and with that info I reassembled the mill and voila, I now have a fully operational mill.

The service I received from B & T Rewinds was excellent and the people working there very knowledgeable and helpful, taking time to assist me even though they were very busy.

Once again, many thanks for all your help on the forum.

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