Emco Dividing Head Questions

[Colin CreedParticipant @colincreed93792]

Those of you that’ve been following Graham Meeks two threads on upgrades to both his Lathe & Mill will already be aware of him using an Emco Dividing Head to achieve some of those upgrades.

Emco Compact 5 Modifications

Adaptation of the Proxxon Milling machine

 

Given that I’m in Australia & finding any Emco stuff is like the proverbial “hen’s teeth”, my alternative is looking to Proxxon for similar tooling & accessories.

In my case I’ve already got their PD 250/E Lathe (close sizing to the Emco C5) & their FF 230 Mill, exactly the same as Graham’s one.

Hopefully this also helps explain “why” I’m only after info relevant to accessories suited to these “small/micro” desktop style machines.

 

So can anyone advise whether the Proxxon UT 400 Universal Dividing Head is the “equivalent” (or viable substitute) for the Emco Dividing Head version?

I’ve never seen or used either the Emco or this Proxxon UT 400 “in person” & so given the costs involved, I’m slightly cautious of investing in something the “fits” but isn’t as “good” or of “poor accuracy”

My hope is that someone on this Forum (being UK & Euro) will have knowledge or experience with either or both units & help provide some answers.

My potential use of the UT 400 would be limited to a few “future” potential projects & so the investment now is being weighed up against the “unknown” & even less likelihood of finding a 2nd hand unit within Australia.

Also viable alternatives are “thin on the ground” due to the scale & size limitations in Z on the Proxxon Mill

 

Photos from a German Supplier website as they show more views & link to the Aussie Supplier for the limited info available about the unit itself. (I’ve since got the Manual with has more details)

 

regards Colin

 

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

There are loads of small rotary tables around at much lower prices.  Soba seem to make quite a range and may be available in Australia. Here’s a link to a UK supplier.  Comes without dividing plates but they are easy to make if not available.

My experience with Proxxon isn’t very happy, I don’t think you get the quality you think you are paying for.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The Emco offerings where not really dividing heads, they were more what would be known as indexers where you had a range of plates and could index using those and a plunger. I have the smaller Unimat3 Version.

The one you show from Proxxon is more of a rotary table complete with the dividing plate so will both allow the machining of curved surfaces and also a greater range of divisions so is superior in far as what it can do.

As John says there are other rotary tables out there that may do the job at less cost though the 400 does look more compact than most.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Further to Jason’s advice … here are some photos:

MichaelG.

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[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

That’s an old SL I think which is different to the U3 and C5. They are more of a block and have the pin parallel to the rotational axis which engages in the holed plates rather than the one in your picture which indexes into holes at the side.

The C5 can be seen in Graham’s thread complete with his additional worm & Wheel attachment with the indexing plate still attached

My U3 last time used in anger

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Surely EMCO is off the menu because Colin says they are as ‘rare as hens teeth’ in Australia.  Actually, their rarity may be world wide – this morning I can only find two on ebay, both in the USA.  This is the fate of obsolete accessories; they slowly disappear!

To my mind, the simple answer is to buy a Proxxon rotary table.  They are available, will fit Colin’s Proxxon lathe and mill, and the ‘quality’ will be compatible with the rest of his Proxxon tooling.    It will do whatever the Proxxon is machine is up for – not much, because it’s small.

In my experience worrying about the ‘quality’ of tools in this kind of situation is a time-waster.   The EMCO and Proxxon offerings are both hobby level, as are most of the Far Eastern alternatives.   All work much the same provided they physically fit the tool.  Better rotary tables cost seriously big money, six to ten times more than the Proxxon table.

The reason I put ‘quality’ in quotes is because the word is meaningless in the absence of a specification.  Colin says ‘My potential use of the UT 400 would be limited to a few “future” potential projects’.  Unfortunately, it’s what those unknown projects are that decide how good the rotary table needs to be!   At the moment, there is no specification!  Chances are though, for hobby work, the specification won’t be high.  If better than hobby-standard really is needed, then Colin’s Proxxon Lathe and Mill will have to be replaced too – they’re not highly specified either!

Dave

 

 

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

Hi Colin,

The original machines of Proxxon and Mannix were designed by the Sakai Special Camera Company in Japan. The Dividing head come Rotary table shown above was designed by them. It does however come with a hefty price tag.

I made use of the Emco Indexing unit as it was compatible with my C5 and as such I could use the equipment from this lathe. Gear cutting was always something I am going to be doing so the “Dividing Attachment” was designed for this purpose. It follows the same principle design of the larger Emco FB2 Dividing attachment.

Using this on the Proxxon requires an adaptor plate and a special tailstock.

Using this in Rotary table mode takes up too much of the available space, “daylight”, under the spindle nose.

A dedicated rotary table unit specifically for the Proxxon mill is on the drawing board and uses a larger wormwheel 60:1 of a similar tooth profile to my Dividing attachment. Cutting the worm for that unit was carried out on the C5.

The design follows the Sakai original, but with some additional clamping places. This design will fit within the table size, because as you know there is not a lot of space to the rear of the table when the cross-slide is fully wound in. In fact on my machine the table touches the column.

The table width of the Proxxon at 80mm matches the diameter of the Emco C5 chucks so I can utilise the full table movement in the Y-Axis.

This can be a problem with buying in non-dedicated equipment for use on these machines. The item will always be a compromise and that compromise will always lead to further compromises. Proxxon list a small Rotary Table which is I think 75m diameter. I have no experience of this unit but it is just a rotary table.

I will keep you posted on the progress of my design.

Regards

Gray,

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

If you can access a 3D printer there is a design on Thingiverse in Openscad for an index plate with all holes, including mounting in any configuration you want. A few years ago I posted on here a picture of a 73 hole one using this offering so you don’t need a worm set-up.
The design of the basic indexer looks so simple you could make the block in aluminium on your own lathe, and probably get away with a printed one too.
For milling curves the traditional lever system use for expansion links can be used so rotary table not essential.

OOPs, forgot we need reasons to get more toys. Ignore above, you need a full universal index head.

[Bazyle]

On Bazyle Said:

…forgot we need reasons to get more toys. Ignore above, you need a full universal index head.

And a universal mill to go with it:

Andrew

[GreensandsParticipant @greensands]

My version adapted for use on the Myford Cross slide.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

That’s an old SL I think which is different to the U3 and C5. They are more of a block and have the pin parallel to the rotational axis which engages in the holed plates rather than the one in your picture which indexes into holes at the side.

[…]

True, Jason …. but given the scarcity, I thought the pictures might be of interest.

MichaelG.

 

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

Sherline do a good quality small rotary table. Their stuff is available in most countries.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Here is some more detail of the SL device:

https://www.nielsmachines.com/en/emco-unimat-sl-dividing-head.html

No pins and holes involved in the indexing … and personally, I believe it is therefore potentially more accurate.

Unfortunately mine was one of many things “lost” in the house-move, so I am unable to demonstrate.

MichaelG.

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

Hi Michael,

While the SL Indexing attachment was a nicely made cast iron unit. If you can get hold of one, it does come with some disadvantages. In that you have to use the SL Chucks and faceplate. This will severely restrict the size of bar that can pass through the Chucks. Whereas the C5 Indexing Unit passes 16 mm diameter bar with the 3 Jaw chuck, ESX 25 Collet Holder, 4 Jaw Chuck(s) and 18 mm if using the faceplate.

I think the OP was looking more for a Dividing Head rather than an Indexer or Rotary table.

Regards

Gray,

 

 

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks for the additional notes, Gray

Just to be clear … With all such items becoming pretty scarce these days, I think it would be useful to use this Topic as a depository for information.

MichaelG.

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Edit: __ having just checked the price of the Proxxon UT400 … it would take a lot to persuade me that it represents good value for money.

[Michael Gilligan]

On Michael Gilligan Said:

 

.

Edit: __ having just checked the price of the Proxxon UT400 … it would take a lot to persuade me that it represents good value for money.

Hi Michael,

I mentioned earlier that the UT400 had a hefty price tag. Low volume sales and high production costs I would suspect.

Not all gloom as following a PM, I am now looking into adapting my Emco Dividing attachment to fit the Proxxon TA 250. This is a cross between the Emco SL and U3 / 4 indexing heads. However this too I believe has been taken out of production.

 

Regards

Gray,

 

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Keep up the good work, Gray !

… We need you.

MichaelG.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

What is the worm ratio on the Emco device?

Brian

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

Hi Brian,

If you mean the Emco FB2 Dividing Head come Rotary Table then this has a 40:1 Ratio.

My add-on attachment featured above is also 40:1 and uses the same indexing plate numbers as the FB2 Unit.

Regards

Gray.

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

One thing I did forget to mention is that The Emco C5 Indexing head can still be purchased new from Austria, at Holz & Hobby. The Spindle has been modified and it now has the Unimat 3 / 4 Spindle Nose added to it, so that it caters for the C5 and U3 / 4 users. As with all compromises the Indexer will now only pass 10 mm through the spindle bore.

Regards

Gray,

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Thank you Graham.

Brian

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

You are welcome Brian, if I can help, I will.

Regards

Gray,

 

One other thing, as regards the currently available C5 Indexing attachment. I have seen older Yellow versions advertised at a higher price than the new one from Austria, even after Taxes.

Regards

Gray,

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

The Emco C5 Indexing head can still be purchased new from Austria, at Holz & Hobby

Do you have a link for that item please Gray ?

I can’t seem to find it on the Emco Holz & Hobby website.

Thanks,

Nigel B.

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

Hi Nigel B,

It seems as though it has been taken down. I was on the site ordering some other items only just over a week ago and it was there then as I bought the item which was next to it.

Sorry for mis-leading you.

Regards

Gray,

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Hi Nigel,

I just checked Emco Holz und Hobby and wasn’t able to find it either.

Thor

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