Embarking on a metal planer/shaper design+build

[IanTParticipant @iant]

How about this one?

Regards,

IanT

[Ryan FarndonParticipant @ryanfarndon38887]

Everyone,

Thank you all for your pearls of wisdom and links to supporting material

As it is such early days I’m keeping my mind very open, but I note in response to your posts:

We have access to CNC lathes and milling machines.

I understand the importance of rigidity in machine tool design, but this attribute cannot be stressed enough so I’m pleased to see several mentions throughout.

Cheers for the concrete suggestions. They were unexpected, but we’ll definitely have a look into this.

A sheet-based Gingery-influenced shaper could prove the way forward, as this can be done entirely in house. John Pace if you do finish it please post photos!

However, Sutton Castings in Nottingham does seem able to handle a great variety of castings – I will send them an email.

I agree that removal of the gear train might help us meet our budget, and the clamps/linear bearing combo sounds promising too.

The cut size that has currently agreed on is 2mm depth by 2mm width on Aluminium (target series: 1000 and 2000).

Joseph Noci 1 – Your ALBA 2S fitment looks brilliant!

The HMEM forum appears to be of great use – I will read this more thoroughly over the weekend.

Woah, that first Cincinnati was smokin’! The size and speed of those chips was mad!

The Elliott has a very fast action and seeing the exposed Steptoe is of great benefit.

I will keep you all updated of progress throughout the project.

Many thanks again,

Ryan

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Re the Cincinnati- when operating a shaper you very soon learn where not to stand (in the path of those hot chips!)

Good luck with the project Ryan.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Ryan Farndon on 13/10/2017 21:33:03:

The cut size that has currently agreed on is 2mm depth by 2mm width on Aluminium (target series: 1000 and 2000).

That seems a big cut for a "desktop" machine. Do you have an overall size envelope you have to work to or are you allowed a big strong desk?

Desktop usually means a machine that the average person can pick up and put on a desk or table when they want to use it so you can't get too carried away with epoxy concrete or iron castings.

[Ryan FarndonParticipant @ryanfarndon38887]

Jeff – Yes I can imagine haha, and thanks

JasonB – The overall maximum envelope is 1 cubic metre. Re the cut size, this is not set in stone yet – it is one of the parameters where we have the most scope for negotiation. We will strive to minimise the machine's mass as far as is practicable.

[norman valentineParticipant @normanvalentine78682]

I think that you would get a lot from looking at Dave Gingery's approach to building machines on a budget. I built a vertical milling machine a few years ago that was entirely successful. I took ideas from the design of the shaper in book 3 of his series. If you want to keep costs down you could consider making you own castings in aluminium, it is very easy. DG's book 1 tells you how to do it.

[RainbowsParticipant @rainbows]

Posted by Ryan Farndon on 13/10/2017 21:33:03:

The cut size that has currently agreed on is 2mm depth by 2mm width on Aluminium (target series: 1000 and 2000).

I would change that to 2mm x 0.2mm. A single point cutting tool wouldn't be able to feed that hard. That is unless you want to think outside the box a little and make a planomill.

Heres a video of a large shaper taking a 6.25×0.5mm cuts. The weight of the vice on that shaper will probably equal your final machine.

Also no one actually linked to a table top planer yet I think, so have a look at this tiny guy in action.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

This publicity / education film by Waldrich form, at a guess, the 1950s gives a good look at the machines & the operation of their hydraulic feed system. **LINK**

The film commentary is in German, but it isn't hard to work out what is going on if you don't know any / much German.

Capable, versatile machines that have been, largely, lost from UK workshops, with nothing to replace them in many cases.

Is the "cubic metre" the total envelope of the finished machine, or the workpiece volume ?

Nigel B

[Ryan FarndonParticipant @ryanfarndon38887]

I have viewed machines taking inspiration from Dave Gingery and this does seem a good route to take considering the budget. Thanks for the book pointers.

I'll have a word with the supervisor about the cut size. That small planer looks good fun

The Waldrich clip has some great close-ups and is very clear.

The cubic metre is for the total envelope of the finished machine.

Ryan

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

You could just fit a toolbit to a Prusa i3 and tell your super that you thought he said 0.02mm x 0.02mm cuts

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi Ryan

The following link at the bottom of this page is to a post I made on this site points to a small cutter grinder I built using both epoxy composite and steel parts. Look towards the bottom of the thread page and the following half dozen or so pages.

I have also included a couple of other links.

This form of construction is (Currently) used by many of the top end CNC machine builders. If you google "Mineral casting" or "Epoxy Granite" you will find many images. The German Hermle company and DMH Maho use it for most of their machining centres. Studier use it for their grinders Etc.

If you have not looked into using composites before you will find it enlightening. I think the method may have application to your project being a one off build.

Regards
John

My other post
**LINK**

A Hermele epoxy casting

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/de1f935da0a0e8b2c31081342c3aece807fe7f9c2e385e2e8986c1baf40bf1c36g.jpg

Some images follow the links

**LINK**

[Paul H 1Participant @paulh1]

Hi Ryan,

The epoxy granite route could well help your project. How do you apply it in practice though? The following link gives some good ideas:

http://s3.cnccookbook.com/CCMillEpoxyFill.htm

He also refers to a more complex thread on the same forum for more theory and maths. Looking at what he is doing you should be able to combine the technique with sheet steel housings.

Regards,

Paul

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

I for one do not agree that epoxy composites in any form would help this project. points below.

1. Cost of large qty of epoxy will exceed the cost of steel sheet to do same job.

2. Shapers carry compression and tension forces in the frame components. Not sure how well epoxy concrete will do with that vs steel.

3. Resonance can be eliminated or reduced by using heavier steel sections where needed and adding tuned mass dampers in key locations to deaden "hot spots" (I have made this work many times in machine tools)

4. There are uncertainties of curing, heat of reaction, mixing consistency variables, and inconsistent shrinkage to worry about with epoxy composites, as well as time spent making moulds and dams. Not so with steel weldments.

5. Fastest construction method for any medium to large object which carries high compression and tension forces (like a shaper or other machine tool) is to cut steel sheet and electric weld it together, normalize it, then do minimal machining on the normalized weldment to attach bearings, slides etc. I believe fast construction is a major factor since the students are trying to do a lot in one school year. Their time would be better spent I think designing the machine and using fast techniques to build the prototype. Messing around learning techniques of epoxy composites could burn a lot of material and hours if there were cure problems, or a mould opened up, etc.

6. The machine could be designed to be bolted to the floor via a sturdy steel channel frame with floor flanges if need be, if the main machine chassis is a bit lightweight. It does not need a mass of concrete to stabilize it. Industrial tools were usually bolted down in my experience.

Just my $0.02 worth.

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi

It is my understanding the machine is to be desktop sized? If this is so the material costs will be low whatever is used, contracted labour will be more significant. As opposed to student supplied labour. Mould making is a low tech approach.

Shrinkage of epoxy composite materials during cure is extremely low (As opposed to Acrylic resins that are not suitable) With a high quality mould within .001 inches is possible. For higher accuracy or with a lower accuracy mould embedded steel ways can be finish machined.

compare this to the distortion caused by welding up a frame made from plate. normalising (Costly) and significant machining is required.

Tuned mass dampers, there is a good account of their use In Alexander Slocum's book precision machine design

**LINK**

Also Eberhard Bamberg's paper Rapid machine design **LINK**

As this is a student collaboration project delving into current Engineering art and thinking outside the square is important.

Regards
John

[Phil H1Participant @philh196021]

I think it might have been me who started the concrete discussion – sorry. But Ill add my 10p worth.

My proposal was to build a simple steel frame for the machine bed – just bolted – not welded. Any steel slide ways that would be proud of the finished concrete could be bright mild steel – so no need for machining if it is set up carefully. My assumption was that drilling holes all over the university floor was not really allowed.

My suggestion was to use concrete to fill the frame voids. Concrete – as in sand cement and gravel. Have I seen this type of assembly before – one that is very stable, precise, capable of taking mind blowing stresses (yes – tension, compression and torsion?) – erm yes – thousands of them.

I agree with John that the mould is simple for a one off (plywood and a few screws) around the steel frame. I agree with Jeff that the gantry would probably be some form of steel fabrication.

Phil H

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I put Epoxy concrete in the search window, and two threads came up, one for a shaper, and the other for a milling machine, both by John Mcnamara, both worth looking at.

Ian S C

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Thanks Ian

I had forgotten about the powerpoint link in the milling machine link, It is time I updated it, I have been so busy the last couple of years that my workshop is just sitting there little used. I am looking forward to getting back at it!

Making Epoxy timing gears for a tower clock.
**LINK**

This link is also interesting a German DIY Epoxy Build Very impressive
**LINK**

Regards
John

[Author]

Posts