Embarking on a metal planer/shaper design+build

[Ryan FarndonParticipant @ryanfarndon38887]

Hi All,

My name is Ryan and 20 years old. I am a 3rd Year Mechanical Engineering Student at the University of Nottingham.

For my group project, my team and I are to design and manufacture a 'desktop-sized', automated metal planer (or shaper) for under £500. Currently, we are defining the requirements with our supervisor.

It would be brilliant if we could see some metal planers and shapers in action; naturally to aid understanding, but also because they're pretty impressive!

Any help that anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,

Ryan

[Ryan FarndonParticipant @ryanfarndon38887]

Would be terrific to see some metal planers and shapers in person 🙂

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Youtube and Google videos should be your first port of call IMO

Lets you see various designs in action

GL

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

As Ady1 said, but then looking at even the smallest design, they are very rigid cast iron. To reduce cost, consider concrete for the bed? roller bearings for the sliding head etc.
BobH

[Davey JParticipant @daveyj]

Might be worth checking the "Gingery shaper". The majority of which could be easily constructed from sheet materials instead of castings That's where I am looking at the moment. Book still available from various suppliers

David

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

I don't see how the Gingery Shaper could be made for £500. The motor and pulleys would consume the first £100 and the castings for the ram, head, table etc another £200 even before you start machining.
These students must think "Outside the Box" for a novel idea.
BobH

[Davey JParticipant @daveyj]

My suggestion was to check out the design for ideas not to copy. Kindest regards David

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

If you go the cast Iron route make the patterns from blocks of polystyrene glued together. OK it gets destroyed when burnt out of the sand but it costs nothing using recycled packaging. I used this method when I made a new cross slide for my lathe. Any foundries in Nottingham to talk to ?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Personally I'd go for a planer. A large heavy bed might be OK on heavy duty linear bearings rather than dovetails.

Drill and tap holes for clamps rather than t-slots.

But you could do worse than fabricate a copy of the Adept No. 2?

Others use a big crank wheel instead of a gear train which may turn out cheaper.

[dcostaParticipant @dcosta]

Hello Ryan, good morning.

I started to make a shaper machine by following partially, Gingery's plans, without castings.
Following a fire in the garage / workshop I stopped the construction that I will someday resume.
If you are interested, you can see photos ***here*** and a small movie of it ***here***.

Regards
Dias Costa

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Planer would be easier and more likely to be a successful learning exercise. Looked into the idea myself as part of a potential business thing and decided re-working the common cheap desktop CNC router kit design to have a moving table was feasible. Fixed standards of reasonably thick alloy plate put sufficient stiffness in to handle metalworking loads appropriate to a desktop, A4 / A3 table, size machine. Fully supported linear guide rods on extrusion support rail with plastic bearings will carry the table loads OK. Various structural X and more complex sections to choose from for the cross rail. Main issues are how to ensure that the cross rail doesn't tilt when moved up or down and how to drive the table. Simple bull wheel, shaper style, is fine and cheap but won't permit accurate stopping positions. Screw drive is accurate but costs will add up. Grid of holes table preferable to T slots for small machine but need to consider costs. Major before you start question is how large a cut will it need to take and should it in principle be capable of setting up as a planer-mill.

Everything is overhung on a shaper so you need a stiff structure. Cast iron is the simple, effective, proven way but relatively expensive to do these days. Machining set-ups are, in principle, simple. Which is why there were many hobby user priced versions around back in the day. No real room for novelty as the design issues were sorted long ago. Neils rework the Adept, or equivalent, suggestion will work fine but you aren't going to learn anything. Student projects should be edgy.

Clive

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

Have a look at Joseph Noci 1 ,s albums and his posts on the restoration of his shaper it is well worth looking at to give you ideas what can be done with a shaper.

David

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

There was a chap over on HMEM forum that built a doubled up version of the model shaper that was in ME about a year ago worked reasonably well and that would sit on your desk and give change out of £500. Most of the build thread has fallen foul to PB but text is there and a video in post #137.

Main body was a bit or ERW rect structural section with a welded on base and most other parts machined. Photos can still be found in his PB album for those that want to look.

 

J

Edited By JasonB on 11/10/2017 15:30:21

[John PParticipant @johnp77052]

Posted by
Davey J 11/10/2017 07:53:04

Might be worth checking the "Gingery shaper". The majority of which could be easily
constructed from sheet materials instead of castings That's where I am looking at the
moment. Book still available from various suppliers.

I would agree with this ,the Gingery book would be a good starting place for
any would be constructors of a home built shaper.
My own version of this follows a similar construction to the Gingery machine
but uses steel plate and cast iron block.Seen here all of this was made in 2013
and has sat in the corner of the shop ever since,runs at the moment on an old
washing machine motor .Designed from the start to be part cnc and manual
machine is an easier job then retro fitting an existing machine.
I may even finish it at some time.

John

[RainbowsParticipant @rainbows]

Most people are thinking Gingery because someone with a propane tank and a bunch of time can make it from nothing, however we are dealing with someone who I imagine has access to CNC lathes and VMCs.

Re: some hints on planer construction

http://metallmodellbau.de/MINI_BONELLE_II.php

I would move the table using a timing belt as shown in the above link (thats for a small grinding machine). Gives fast, wear free motion. Ballscrew would be expensive, rack and pinion expensive-ish and an trapezoidal leadscrew too slow. On the input to the wheel put a medium (~200-300W for small machine, see how your budget goes) DC motor. Connect the DC motor to a H bridge and some inductance limit switches to tell it when to reverse.

Use MGN linear rails to move the relatively fast and often moving table. Have the rails bolted to a chunky slab of steel, skimmed on a mill or surface ground would be best for accuracy.

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=129363 <- Noci made a very nicely made automatic feed to his shaper as previously mentioned. You could do a lot worse than taking inspiration from his method.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Clive Foster on 11/10/2017 14:48:34:

Neils rework the Adept, or equivalent, suggestion will work fine but you aren't going to learn anything. Student projects should be edgy.

Clive

Give me credit, my first suggestion was a planer using linear bearings!

Neil

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I trust the project report will include an explanation of the difference in use of planers and shapers and why planers never caught on in home workshops but remain in use in industry.

I rather wonder if the mature and experienced engineers on here giving information and advice is rather defeating the object of the exercise for the students.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

I would be very focused on rigidity and inertia. The transient loads in the frame (all the way from the tool through the movement and back through the table to the work) are going to be critical to avoiding distortion and chatter. And the inertia that is inherent in most shaper designs (the mass of the ram itself plus the equivalent mass of the geared up moments of inertia of the bull wheel, drive gears and motor) surely plays a significant part in their operation.

My understanding is that a planer has a travelling table (and work), so the inertia is also going to be pretty significant.

I'm not convinced that a lightweight tool post driven by a relatively elastic drive belt is going to work in a satisfactory way. Besides, as the cost of motors and associated drive electronics will be a significant fraction of the total, I'd consider keeping the motor speeds high, where a decent power output will be possible. That would also allow you to maximise the effects of the moment of inertia of the drive train. Perhaps a geared motor and ballscrew might be a workable compromise?

Murray

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Bazyle on 12/10/2017 09:06:00:

…

I rather wonder if the mature and experienced engineers on here giving information and advice is rather defeating the object of the exercise for the students.

Especially as Ryan started by saying 'It would be brilliant if we could see some metal planers and shapers in action'. Being a 3rd Year Mechanical Engineering Student means he's hot on the theory, but as we know there's nothing like looking at a working machine. Quite often the difference between a good tool and a poor one lies in the details, like having convenient controls, and not having exposed gears that grab you by the knadgers!

Is there anyone in the Nottingham area who could show Ryan a working Shaper or Planer, perhaps explaining what's good and bad about it?

Dave

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

+1 on emphasizing importance of rigidity in machine tool design. If you want a planer or shaper to make flat surfaces to reasonable accuracy and with good finish, it must be rigid and must have sturdy guiding elements with miminal clearances. Drive elements should also be rigid members rather than belts.

Linear guides and belts are fine for things like plotters and 3D printers where there is little or no force on the "tool head" during working, but they will not be robust enough for a shaper or planer.

For shapers and planers think inches thick of cast iron for frame and guides, V gibs or L gibs for the guides, and heavy steel or iron gears and bars for drives. Lots of well oiled bronze too, at wear points. (Like they did in the 1800's onward, for same reasons as mentioned). If made well this type of construction will give reliable long lasting accurate machine tools. If built too lightly there will be all sorts of accuracy issues and harmonics issues with machine tools.

Couple of video links below, in first one, skip to minute 1.00. This is a big Cincinatti shaper. Second one is a smaller Elliot. Both are great examples of good shapers.

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 12/10/2017 13:45:18

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I think what's disappointing here is that a 3rd year mechanical engineering student has never seen a planer or shaper in action. How are they supposed to design things if they don’t know how they are made?

Yes I know planers and shapers are old hat, but there are still plano mills out there
 

Edited By duncan webster on 12/10/2017 13:52:05

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

A video below with some coverage of the internals of a working Steptoe shaper. Lots of well lubed good heavy CI and steel there. Many brands of shaper had the mechanism made exactly this way. Again, skip the first minute of shaky crap video to get to the worthwhile stuff.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by duncan webster on 12/10/2017 13:50:22:

I think what's disappointing here is that a 3rd year mechanical engineering student has never seen a planer or shaper in action. How are they supposed to design things if they don’t know how they are made?

Yes I know planers and shapers are old hat, but there are still plano mills out there

Edited By duncan webster on 12/10/2017 13:52:05

I suppose looking at old machinery is a great way to get a good knowledge about a range of mechanisms and common features across many machines.

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

"It would be brilliant if we could see some metal planers and shapers in action; "

You are about 20 years too late to see that easily – and they were getting thin on the ground then

"but remain in use in industry."

Barely. This one is currently for sale local to me. **LINK**

This is one of the last I know of – 2 of the 3 the others I used to have work done on have been scrapped over the last 10 years or so & I would not be suprised if it failed to find a buyer & was scrapped also. Even assuming it got a bid at the start price, it would most likely cost at least as much again to get it dismantled, moved, a foundation put in & re-installed. The Waldrich linked to was actually the smaller of the two planers at that company, so I guess that the larger Craven has already been scrapped. I dismantled a Swift Summerskill planer for scrap where I work now about 5 years ago – it was worth more as scrap than it would have sold for intact. There was nothing wrong with it & I felt guitly about having to kill it, but we needed the space for another machine that would make money. Planer tables fitted with legs & used as marking out or assembly tables come up in auctions quite regularly – every one a dead machine. At one time they were sent out to India , but that market largely disappeared when the indian Goverment put large import tariffs on used machinery to encourage Indian industry to invest in new machines rather than buying obsolete used ones.

I wonder why the lecturer set this task, as universities have been teaching that planers & shapers are obsolete for at least 25 years – I had to work with a placement year engineering student over the acceptance of a rebuilt machine that long ago & he brought in one of his course books on machine tool technology that dismissed planers in half a page, with a line drawing & one paragraph. Maybe beacuse the students would be unlikely to come across one in real life & have to work out how they worked from scratch ?

Nigel B

 

Edited By Nigel B on 12/10/2017 20:08:25

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Possibly Ryan would learn what he needs by looking at one of the small hobby shapers some lucky people have rather than a working industrial model.

My guess is that the task has been set to teach designing to a budget. It's not that a shaper is actually needed. Although a shaper is fairly simple designing one from scratch is a challenge, especially for that price. I think it's posssible though.

Dave

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