elf and safety gone mad

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Common sense does not exist in America so Mcdonalds warn us on the cup that coffee is hot, I think I knew that before I could read.

Mike

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by V8Eng on 06/01/2015 20:00:02:

As our Westminster politicos are talking of devolving more power to local councils (our representatives!), I expect we can look forward to much more interference in most aspects our lives.

Edited By V8Eng on 06/01/2015 20:00:52

Only if they are quoting the right rules.

Many more people are getting wise to these quasi rules and 3 companies I know have questioned them with the result they have left, never to return so the more this gets out, the better for all.

Read a while ago where a flat roofing company was told they could not go on roofs to repair or relay them without them being side guarded off first. When they pointed out they needed to get up there to guard off they were just ignored. So the owner and his solicitor turned up at a council meeting and basically trashed the meeting trying to get an answer. No answer was forthcoming so his solicitor asked for a list of names so they could take legal action over loss of earnings.

Soon sorted and they had to self train one person to go up, guard off before the rest went up. but no one could find anything in any regs to say this.

[LimpetParticipant @limpet]

I was attending a training course in Masstrict when we all stopped and looked out the window to watch someone standing on the top of a tall step ladder on top of a dozen pallets at the full height extension of a fork lift attaching a cable to the top of a pole. Luckily no one fell but we were all speechless

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

We had a safety inspection at one company I worked at by a consultant safety company on our behalf. We were criticised for not having a sign warning of a fragile roof on the side of a storage building the height of a tall house. We pointed out that it wasn't necessary as it was 'safe by position', meaning you had to have a very long ladder to reach the roof. No, says safety consultant, if a burglar was on the roof he could fall though and hurt himself, possibly sue the company because we hadn't warned him. But if the burglar was not employed on an illegal activity, he wouldn't be on the roof and therefore wouldn't fall through, therefore if he did it would be all his own fault, was our more common sense reply, but this reply wasn't accepted. Madness.

Chris

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Back to gas bottles and the not-always ubiquity of common sense.

Long long ago I was working on the construction of a power station in western Zimbabwe. No elfin safey, no unions, no nuffink. Working on the top level of the main boilers, about 10 storeys high, there was a set of oxy/acet bottles used for general cutting etc on the job. But instead of having the usual crimped on fitting where the hoses joined the regulators, the hoses were simply attached to the flare nut spigots with ordinary jubilee clips like you would use on a motorbike fuel line. Standard operating procedure in Zim apparently.

All well and good until one day one of the clips let a bit of acetylene leak out, and being a construction site there were welding sparks showering down all about. The acetylene caught fire and the flame fired right at the neck of the oxygen bottle. Nobody noticed because the bottles were tucked in out of the way next to a big RSJ.

So eventually the neck or valve of the oxy bottle gave way under the internal pressure plus heat, bottle fell over and shot along the steel decking like a missile at about warp factor 5. Until it went under the handrail and off the edge of the deck, to lodge eventually in the mud 10 storeys below and about a hundred yards from the power station.

Miraculously nobody was hurt. So they hooked up another bottle, with the same jubilee clip on the hose and carried on.

And ladders! That were luxury that were. We had to use cable ladder racking stood on end, if we were lucky. Otherwise we had to make our own by welding bits of pipe together. Often we just clambered about on the Unistrut framework for the cable tray racking, hoping that whoever put it up had tightened the bolts properly.

Sometimes instead of climbing up ladders we came down from above in a Bosun's Chair suspended by two rather thin wire cables attached to a pair of hand-cranked winches. My mate was in one, hanging halfway down a furnace wall consisting of 2" water tubes welded side by side and standing almost the full 10 stories high. Sun came over the yard arm and heated the 50 foot wide panel of water tubes until it "popped" like a piece of car bodywork will do in fierce sun. Except this thing "popped" about six feet or so and shot the Bosun's Chair out into the middle of space. It swung like a pendulum on its wire cables, and then back into the side of the furnace with a hell of a bang. We never could get that bloke or his African offsider to go in the bosun's chair again.

[David JuppParticipant @davidjupp51506]

Real life accident reports show that people do sometimes do things completely contrary to 'common sense' – either as a short cut to do the job, as a result of a momentary lapse, or because they simply don't appreciate the hazard.

Displaying warning signs or fitting interlocks etc. is relatively easy – getting people to always behave safely (or at least not blatantly unsafely) is far more challenging.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Hopper on 07/01/2015 08:10:15:

But instead of having the usual crimped on fitting where the hoses joined the regulators, the hoses were simply attached to the flare nut spigots with ordinary jubilee clips like you would use on a motorbike fuel line.

Just wondering; why should a crimped collar be any more reliable than a "Jubilee" style clip?

Russell.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Jubilee style clip in small sizes doesn't tighten up in a circle. The bit holding the worm is far more rigid so it actually tightens up in a 'D' shape and there are two possible points of leak.

In larger sizes the points are far smaller taken as a percentage of diameter.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

This morning on my way to work along the cyclepath between river and allotments one of the streetlights (pathlights) was being worked on with a van and a hole to get at the electric cables. Small sign to divert pedestrians onto matting put on grass beside path. Very thoughtfull. Two very big signs blocking path 10 feet each side of the work area – "No Smoking".

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Malaga, 1996 – the Christmas lights were strung from tree to tree, daisy-chained using choc-block connectors and no other means of support! And no earth as far as I could see.

Neil

Edit – should add these were outside the Council's offices!

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 07/01/2015 19:06:46

[Michael Smith 15Participant @michaelsmith15]

During a audit by a Loyds register of shipping safety inspector I was told that a method statement should be written in such a way that any person regardless of training or experience should be able to understand it and perform the task required , apparently experience counts for nothing.This left me wondering why I had to spend so much time attending so called training courses . At the time I was part of a small very experienced team installing very large pieces of equipment at major airports .Most of the pieces weighed in excess of 40 tons and due to the length of up to 120 feet required 2 cranes. Tandem lifting is one operation that HS inspectors dislike mainly because if it is not planned very carefully when slewing its easy to get into situation were one or both cranes go out of there safe working zones . We often lifted into very restricted spaces and positioned pieces with a few mm of clearance . We never had a single incident and every job was delivered on time but in the end we would only work at night when all the HS bods were safely tucked up in their cots . All they what is high tech answers for low tech labour and nobody is allowed to thing for themselves . So next time you walk through T5 heathrow look at the link bridges and boarding bridges that take you to the plane and spare a thought for the people who installed them against a barrage of health and safety that made it difficult to work. Mike

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Michael,

I dont work with such big equipment but I can relate, I have to write method statements and have also assembled robots in the evening because the two pairs of braces and belts man has gone home.

Martin P

[Jesse Hancock 1Participant @jessehancock1]

I have a theory on this sort of thing.

In short we have lost our manufacturing base and much of it to China and India it seems.

In no small part was this due to wages here in Britain and possibly the rest of the Western nations. Because if a bloke is willing to work for the price of a bowl of rice aday as opposed to whats needed to support a Western way of life there's just no comparison.

Business in Europe and North America were quick to see the benefits of Chinese and Indian production costs and so moved their production lock stock and barrel. Add to that no health and safety and millions of just begging for work to feed themselves.

Skills in China and India must be growing where as here in the west they are falling rapidly.

On the one hand it's great to be able to buy cheaply. I can't afford a Myford even now. But on the other hand how far will this go? When the money runs out here what do we as a nation to exist? We build very few ships, we only assemble cars which are bought in any volume. The same can be said of the motor cycle industry. Electical goods has also gone. Blah Blah Blah ad infinitum.

Jesse. Now depressed.

Edited By Jesse Hancock 1 on 09/01/2015 10:32:26

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

You have only to remember that many years ago Egypt Greece and the Romans ruled the world Where are they now? We are going the same way

Roy ( I've often said I'm glad I'm not a youngster any more )

[Chris GunnParticipant @chrisgunn36534]

Jesse and Roy, do not get too depressed, we make the best aero engines in the world, Rolls Royce Jaguar and Bentley cars, export thousands of land rover, range rovers, minis and Toyotas, make a lot of Europe's Ford engines, leaders in Pharmaceuticals, DNA research, make most of the chips for the worlds mobile phones, world class engineering consultants building bridges, tunnels high rise buildings everywhere. yes we have lost a lot of metal bashing industries, but we are working smarter now, not harder. There is a big shortage of young engineers so that is one thing we need to sort out, and being more positive about what we can do well could encourage them.

Chris Gunn

[Bodgit Fixit and RunParticipant @bodgitfixitandrun]

Posted by John Stevenson on 06/01/2015 20:10:23:

Last two posts have mentioned common sense but I was told, by a guy on my side, that because common sense cannot be defined you cannot use the term.

There is a rule in use within professions of "reasonable competence".

When faced with a question of competence the question is asked "What would a reasonably competent person / practitioner do" This has nothing to do with experience or training because the same rule is applied accross the board. If a reasonably competent person would not have done something then the view would be taken that it should not have been done. Likewise the converse is true.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

You can take a competence approach to risk assessment. Instead of listing every possible risk you say something like 'only competent persons may use XXX'. Then keep competency records based on training and experience.

Of course we got awkward squad who said "how can you tell someone is competent to assess competence?" (the answer is "they don't ask stupid questions&quot.

Neil

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

When I was a Pressure Vessel Surveyor the Statutory Regs for inspections called for a 'Competent Person'.   Well, there is, or was, no exam or qualification to produce a 'Competent Person', so it was accepted that the definition of such a person was along the lines of 'someone who has the experience and knowledge of the vessel in question, the likely faults and defects they may have, and where to look for them'.

I am not sure such a common sense definition would be acceptable now, although perhaps it is, I hope so, as there are too many self-important, over-promoted jobsworths in authority that would struggle to comprehend such a definition. It would cause them to think for themselves, something they have never been trained to do and are thus incapable of so doing.

Chris

Edited By ChrisH on 10/01/2015 00:39:12

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

I have a friend who is a qualified electrician here in Australia and has over 40 years experience at the job.

We live on the border of NSW & Vic.

Last year he was was informed that he had to obtain a certificate to climb a ladder in Vic.

The 'obligatory' 3 hour training course cost him $450. (+ the cost of a 'flouro orange jacket&#39

I think that the elfin safety mob are out of control and just another cash machine for people who are paid to sit in front of their computers and dream up another scam for the tradies.

* Danny M *

[Michael Smith 15Participant @michaelsmith15]

I have recently had to attend a 3 day course to allow me to carry on driving a HGV truck .This is an attendance course only so in theory you could spend the entire time asleep and still receive the Drivers qualification card. Every HGV driver has had to attend this course if they want to carry on driving commercialy .I have had a HGV for 37 years and my little finger has forgotten more about how to secure difficult loads than the guy taking the course would ever know .I am also self employed so had to take 3 days off work and pay £350 for the privilege . Mike

[Jesse Hancock 1Participant @jessehancock1]

I'm not sure whether it was because when Elf & Saftey got started I used to live on the job (more or less) or whether the Boss thought I had just a tad more common sense than the next guy. What ever his reasons I went along and played the game along with everyone else there. For my good behaviour I also attended the first aider courses every so often. Later and upon joining another company as a Quality Engineer (worrying all the foremen every time I appeared on the various lines, since I had the power to stop production at the first sign of something falling out of spec.) I was asked to do the self same thing for them and plodding around doing risk assessment aswell. By this time I really didn't want the frist aider job as it's a horrible responsibility especialy if there was a genuine accident but I thought it over and decided at worst I would have to stay with the casualty and hope he/she stayed alive until an ambulance arrived, (worst case senario) or take an unearned break. Happily most of the accidents were of the paper cut variety or that they had a headache and needed A.CO.HOLiday for which I used to send them back to their boss.

Over time I weaseled out of it but by then I had tended a few bad accidents which were caused in the main by people being stupid. That's not to say that I'm any different to anyone else as there has been more than one occasion when I have stopped myself doing something really daft and one time when I didn't. I payed for that with my left eye.

So in the end it's a case of keep your wits about you, don't let anyone or anything distract you if what you are doing is something potentially dangerous like driving. At the end of the day we are all responsible for ourselves and those around us. Elf and Safety has done it's job if like us on here are talking about it they have at least made us aware, yeah?

Jesse

Edited By Jesse Hancock 1 on 10/01/2015 15:15:11

[frank brownParticipant @frankbrown22225]

Elf and Safety is just a cross we have to bear now a days. its prime function to to cover the backs of the management or to ensure a clique can earn a good living doing half doing a job. The way it goes is that some boffin writes out the rules while thinking of possible scenarios. So some of it is so bleeding obvious that only a fool would not do this anyway, some of it is in the realms of IF this happened AND this happened AND this happened, we must write out some regulation which which, if adhered to, would result in a safe outcome.

About twenty years ago, all the Sparkies in my firm were only allowed to use glass fibre ladders, in case while changing a lamp fitting, a bare wire touched the ladder and they were touching some earth.. Thats half a job, suppose that wire touched THEM while they were holding an earth???? Ah, but its too expensive for the Sparkies to come in out of hours, so they could isolate a whole bank of lights to work on the faulty one.

The other thing is the part P of the building Regs., now a days you need to be a part P registered Sparkie to fit a new 13A socket. So how many people have died over the last 80 years due to them badly wiring something up? The best the IEE could say was 15 a year, compared to 3000 who die in road accidents. But it does provide work for electricians, who go round and measure the loop resistance of your circuits. Interestingly it also makes the other 21.5 million dwellings non-compliant. If it was important then all homes should be done. " No old bean, can not do, our electricians are tied up for the time being, we are keeping that one on the side until our work dries up"

Frank

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Just before I retired from work I made arrangements to hire a 'Geni' and I was using a different company to which I had used in the past, the hire company said I would need to sent the person who would be using the machine to them for training (no charge I must add ) I explained that my Forman had been for training at a previous company that i had hire machines from Ahhh he said that doesn't count the training must be on their machine ………

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Not being one who could ever resist a rant………………and part P was mentioned……………….

I was apprentice trained as an Electrical Engineer in the early seventies. I went to tech colledge for three years as well. I came out of my training with a C&G National diploma in Electrical Engineering, Between then and the introduction of part P I have done everthing from domestic rewiring (Considered by all in the trade as rock bottom!) to heavy duty maintenance and installation in flour mills, gravel and sand plants, print works, food production plants etc etc.

Part.P was introduced by the "office of the deputy prime minister" a post specially created for Mr John Prescot. According to the website of the now defunct ODPM

"This legislation is introduced to stem the rising tide of electrical accidents in the home"

According to this legislation, if I want to carry on doing "certain specified work under part P", work I have been doing for thirty years or so, I must pay a large sum of money to have one of my jobs inspected, and then an annual fee to one of the "schemes of registration" to continue to work. The strange thing about this is that there actually was no "rising tide of electrical accidents in the home" In fact the "tide" has been falling steadily since about 1962. How do I know? I was involved in some research for a group which was originally consulting with the govenment on Part P, and whose services were dispensed with when they came to the conclusion that part P was a very bad idea and should not be introduced. The research I did found out that there were two bodies who kept safety data for electrical accidents in the home, RoSPA, and the now long gone Department of trade and Industry. When the DTI ceased to be they passed their accident database on to RoSPA, and Rospa passed copies of both databases on to me, after telling me that the data was far from complete, as it was based on information supplied by 12 A&E departments at major hospitals up and down the country. Nevertheless, the data showed quite clearly that the "rising tide" statement was totally false..

Fast Forward to today, and the Part P Training industry is really going strong, and now you can go from the dole queue, with no previous experience in any engineering field, to being a part P approved person (You can rewire houses) in just 5 weeks! Of course it is expensive, anything up to 5 grand!! Given the age I am, and my almost zero interest in domestic rewiring, I will not be applying Anyone who does will be in for a shock too because after they have finished their training, the chances of them getting a job in the industry are negligible, because the vast majority of domestic rewiring has now been done, it boomed from the sixties till the early nineties, then the market flattened out, and domestic rewires are a mere trickle of the workload. Of course all the work done during this time is not part P compliant and never will be!

Despite all that the new systems must be safer, or there would bo no reason to introduce them would there?

Well actually, they are not safer at all. Because the old IEE regulations (which were arrived at by senior electrical engineers, and actually contained a definition of a "competent person" who was deemed well qualified enough to use and apply the regulations (5 year apprenticeship, plus a recognised technical qualification and at least three years experience after the apprenticeship!) have been supeseeded by the IET regulations, the compilers of which are mainly manufacturers, not electrical Engineers (if you have the big red or green book, its all in there)

The IEE regs used to state, "any mechanical device fitted in a circuit as a means of providing protection against fault currents or overload shall itself be fail safe"

No such regulation exists in the IET regulations, and it couldn't because if it did, MCB's and RCD's could not comply with it, as they are not fail safe. This is a major flaw in thinking, and an example of piss poor understanding of electrical safety, because if the MCB or RCD does fail. and after all they are mechanical devices, the only protection left is the mains supply cut out fuse usually rated between 60 and 100 amps, and testing/calculating the "prospective fault current" and filling in the result on a test sheet is not going to stop an overload fire happening. A fuse ALWAYS fails safe! Use MCB's and RCD's by all means, but use fuses as well because they provide protection for the MCB/RCD itself.

The strange thing is that although I am not Part P registered, I am a "competent person" and can still rewire houses (part P ONLY applies to domestic premises) should I wish too. In fact ANYONE can rewire their own house, as long as they get the work checked by the local Bulding control electrical inspector,(it costs!) but they (the householder) have to test it, (not simple anymore and requiring expensive test equipment) and sign it off and accept responsibility for its safety.

So what effect has this cockeyed legislation had?

It has given the larger electrical contractors an excuse to dump all there domestic work. Talked to a NICEIC rep during the introduction of partP period, and he told me that out of twenty contractors he had visited that week, only three had expressed any interest in signing up for part P registration.

It has provided lots of jobs for middle management running the registration schemes (known in the trade as the registration scams)

It has made a fortune for training colleges peddling useless training courses with no hope of a job at the end.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

On this note we can go back to elf and safety and mention that other scam, PAT testing. You will all be pleased to know that the highly skilled technician who does your pat testing could gain the neccasary qualification in just two days at college (no previous experience required). Any appliance tested is only proved safe on the day it is tested., most are not tested properly, due to poor training and there are no figures to show that pat testing has done anything at all to affect the accident figures, but on the plus side it has created a multi million pound industry which goes from the manufacturers of dozens of different test sets right down to the people who (during the days of the "back to work grant&quot were being offered overalls, safety boots, a two day training course and the required pat test instrument to get them off the dole!! If you need PAT testing, shop around, you can get it for as little as 50p per apliance, as the industry is now imploding.

Rant over.

I feel better now

Phil

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