Electronic water softeners.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

That sounds similar to an electronic gadget sold here to get rid of pests, anything from mice to cockroaches, it's safe and doesn't effect pets, or children.

Ian S C

[john kennedy 1Participant @johnkennedy1]

Posted by martin perman on 10/01/2016 19:14:15:

I'm in a hard water area and my boiler is 27 years old and we are only recently on our second washing machine, the first wore out mechanically, no need for a softener hear either.

Martin P

Martin,do yourself a favour and chuck that boiler out and get a new condensing one. I did and my gas bill halved.

(assuming you are on mains gas)

John

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Fit one to your waterworks and it will make your wee smell of roses

Stub

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Ian S C on 11/01/2016 11:17:04:

That sounds similar to an electronic gadget sold here to get rid of pests, anything from mice to cockroaches, it's safe and doesn't effect pets, or children.

Ian S C

These actually work (ultrasonic ones).

There is a version that uses a slightly lower frequency used in the UK to get rid of groups of teenagers.

Neil

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 11/01/2016 13:19:40:There is a version that uses a slightly lower frequency used in

I believe that classical music works better

Russell.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 10/01/2016 19:08:18:

I remember reading somewhere that the hard water scale only occurs over 50C ? I get scale forming on the hot tap outlet and have once or twice caught the back of my hand on the sharp deposit, I do not see this on any cold tap!

We have vast caves in the mountains near here full of stalactites created by hard water dripping through. I'm sure the temperature never reaches 50 C!

As far as magnetic water softeners are concerned – has it occurred to anyone that most animals fight for food or territory while the human animal is the only one that fights for unproven beliefs.

Russell.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 11/01/2016 13:44:22:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 11/01/2016 13:19:40:There is a version that uses a slightly lower frequency used in

I believe that classical music works better

Russell.

No longer! One curious side-effect of the web is that today's teenagers have broader musical tastes than us lot. My daughter has discovered just about everything from Tom Lehrer to obscure eastern European folk. I'm running out of obscure music to surprise her with.

But I do think the k-pop is just to wind me up…

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I'm impressed (not!) by the ones that wrap a coil of wire round a copper pipe and excite it with AC. Er, copper pipe = shorted turn = no field at all inside the pipe where the water is…

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

What Were told about Glucosamine is that You can only use it for a month or so and have to lay off it for a while. Then start using it again, rinse and repeat.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

The paradox of placibo treatments is that you can't "sell" or "prescribe" them as "placebos" otherwise by definition they wouldn't work. Instead you must call them something like "homeopathic" or some other woo medicinal name. That upsets the practitioners of conventional medicine for whom it wouldn't work anyway.

So you can peddle placebos – but they only work if you believe in them. And by definition they won't be labelled "placebo". We're a funny lot!

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by John Haine on 11/01/2016 15:32:34:

I'm impressed (not!) by the ones that wrap a coil of wire round a copper pipe and excite it with AC. Er, copper pipe = shorted turn = no field at all inside the pipe where the water is…

The wires are insulated.

Another link on the subject:

**LINK**

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Alex Hapgood on 11/01/2016 00:24:34:

Having arthritis in my knees, I have considerable pain at times.

Alex

May be worth a try?

**LINK**

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Laplace, Franklin, Deslon and Mesmer

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Vic, you miss my point. The insulated coil generates an alternating field outside a copper pipe, the pipe is a shorted turn and there will be little or no field inside the pipe as the current in the pipe wall will generate an opposing field.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

If the frequency is low enough, the pipe thickness will be less than the skin depth and magnetic field will penetrate to a reasonable degree. As they are doubtless operating at some convenient frequency like 50Hz, the skin depth would be pretty big (almost 10mm) and the pipe (1mm wall?) would be transparent to any magnetic field. I think that's possibly where the science ends though.

[Boiler BriParticipant @boilerbri]

I'm with windy on this one when you start to take things out of water in becomes a sponge and tries to get the elements back into itself. We supplied a volumetric filler to a renal care company, we used 316 stst. Overnight the de ionised water if left in leeched the stainless steel. Day after the water was yellow!

Bri

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

See http://www.premierwatermn.com/saltless-water-softeners-fact-fiction/

The frequency is 1000 Hz and up so skin depth much smaller. Looking at the size of the coil and the small boxes that drive them in the commercial products, the current cannot be very high, so with that and the screening effect of the pipe the field in the water is going to be very low.

Given the costs and inconvenience of scaling in plumbing systems all over the world, these gadgets would be standard fit everywhere if they worked. The fact that they aren't is telling. Pure pseudoscience.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by John Haine on 12/01/2016 05:06:43:

The frequency is 1000 Hz and up so skin depth much smaller. Looking at the size of the coil and the small boxes that drive them in the commercial products, the current cannot be very high, so with that and the screening effect of the pipe the field in the water is going to be very low.

Of course you could fit one of these magnetic devices over a plastic water pipe and the magnetic field would get through. However there is no known mechanism by which it can modify water!

Russell.

[Mark P.Participant @markp]

Whilst I don’t now doubt the general conscences that they don’t work, surely trading standards would have stepped in and put a stop to their claims?
Mark P.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Mark P. on 12/01/2016 09:35:38:
Whilst I don't now doubt the general conscences that they don't work, surely trading standards would have stepped in and put a stop to their claims?
Mark P.

.

Mark,

It's worth following Vic's second link on the first page of this thread.

There is an important [but tricky] distinction between 'water softening' and 'prevention of limescale buils-up'.

MichaelG.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 12/01/2016 09:54:06:

Posted by Mark P. on 12/01/2016 09:35:38:
Whilst I don't now doubt the general conscences that they don't work, surely trading standards would have stepped in and put a stop to their claims?
Mark P.

.

Mark,

It's worth following Vic's second link on the first page of this thread.

There is an important [but tricky] distinction between 'water softening' and 'prevention of limescale buils-up'.

MichaelG.

Yes, they aren't water softeners, they help to keep lime scale in suspension rather than sticking to pipes etc. At least that's what the articles I've read say.

[Mark P.Participant @markp]

It’s the prevention of limescale build up I am interested in, I quite like hard water as it goes.
Mark P.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Mark P. on 12/01/2016 11:04:52:
It's the prevention of limescale build up I am interested in, I quite like hard water as it goes.
Mark P.

.

You might still be in with a chance then.

MichaelG.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

The build up of limescale is a function of the heating of hard water, a Wicki page on Lime scale gives some interesting detail about deposition of lime scale according to temperature rise.

The 50 C temperature is what a domestic house water heater operates at and is obviously pertinent to what we are talking about here. Then again a train boiler operates at a much higher temperature so it is necessary to treat the water in such cases. rain water excepted of course.

A kettle furrs up because the heat boils out the limescale and it is deposited on the structure of the kettle and the element. One posting mentions caves and stalagmites that are deposited and grow but are made from cold water seeping down through rock and absorbing calcites. This could in fact be rainwater which is then loaded with calcite and takes millenia to filter through and cause deposition. Hardly what i was talking about.

Clive

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by John Haine on 12/01/2016 05:06:43:

See http://www.premierwatermn.com/saltless-water-softeners-fact-fiction/

The frequency is 1000 Hz and up so skin depth much smaller.

No, the skin depth is proportional to the inverse of the square root of the frequency. So at 1kHz it's still about 2mm and so the field isn't going to be attenuated much through a mere 0.7mm thickness of copper, less than 20% loss.

Precipitating some of the ions into a suspension rings an almost plausible bell and presumably explains why TSA haven't put the kibosh on the snake oil salesmen. But as you say, they can't be very effective otherwise they'd be a lot more widespread and accepted.

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