Electrical installation

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

G'day all.

IF (big 'if&#39 our claim assessors ever get their act together (6 months so far!) we may be able to start the house rebuild. It is going to be pretty major and will entail an almost complete rewire.

The question is – is there any LOGICAL/ELECTRICAL advantage in positioning electrical sockets at skirting board level as distinct from waist/dado level? It has always been a source of irritation (and back strain) for me but SWMBO and predecessor both think it 'looks better'.

The other disadvantage of the low level location was shown when the house was inundated – INSTANT electrical short!

Thoughts/comments would be appreciated.

Rgds

Bill

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Hi Bill,

Probably resale value – new buyers might find it 'odd' to see sockets half way up the walls.

Why? No dangling wires? They are always high up in institutions and workshops where aesthetics are less important.

Neil

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Hi

I may be wrong but I thought that under the current wiring regs that sockets had to be a minimum distance above floor level. It might be worth checking the regs to see if this is the case for a rewire as well.

Cheers

Martin

There is some info here which applies to new builds and installations.

Edited By Martin W on 12/06/2014 11:29:00

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The 17th edition says the sockets should be positioned to minimize the risk of mechanical damage during use, insertion and removal of the plug. I think it would be difficult to achieve this at skirting level as the risk from kicks and tasks such as sweeping or vacuuming would damage plug and socket. Skirting level will almost guarantee that any surplus cable will form a trip hazard or leave cable vulnerable to crush damage.

Mike

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

You are quite right martin that under the 17th wiring regulations you are not allowed to install the sockets below the stated min height from the floor and a specified distance from a door and any source of water

It is mainly came about for Disabilty and ease of access

Strange how it doesn't apply to industry where basically any height is ok 

cheers

Edited By Trevorh on 12/06/2014 11:40:50

[David JuppParticipant @davidjupp51506]

I've gone for sockets and light switches at approx 1m above floor where I've had building work done. I first saw this used over 30 years ago in some then new areas of Peterborough – great for the elderly, saves bending down. Light switches fall naturally at 'hand height' for adults, and can be reached by small children.

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

All our sockets are well above floor level, I just put them in as required. If you are in a flood prone area it would be much better. There are sockets which unclip from the backing box and pull out, enabling them to be hooked out of the way of floods.

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Many thanks, chaps.

That 450mm (18"? in old money) limit is interesting and should be useful ammunition!!

Maybe a case for careful examination of intended use and adjust accordingly. One thing for sure, the workshop WILL have the waist-high version!!

Rgds

Bill

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

I'm not a sparky and sometimes you have to insist on what you want rather than what they do all the time as long as it complies with current regulations.

There are two distinct differences here, new build and existing.

New build states that sockets and switches are to be positioned between 450mm and 1200mm from finished floor level and you can NOT have them at skirting level.

As your property is not new then you can retain the current position of the sockets or move them, the choice is yours. My personal view is have sockets at 450 to 500mm off the floor and have done this on two properties ours and the mother in laws both in he last 2 years. They may seem out of place for a day or two but then you no longer notice and they are so much easier to get to.

One thing I would suggest, if you are changing the consumer unit then have one fitted that has RCBO's in place of RCB's and standard breakers. OK there is a cost implication to RCBO's but it not as high as people think and has the advantage of any fault that trips a circuit it only effects that circuit not a group of them. If you live in an area that is subject to flooding then if the consumer unit is above flood level then if you get flooded again then the circuits under water should be the only ones that trip.

Bob

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I'd be worried that sockets half way up the wall could encourage people not to flip the masterswitch in case of a flood, forgetting there are almost certainly appliances with bare terminals well below that level, and who knows what junction boxes etc. hidden in walls and floor.

Neil.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

There should be no problems if the sockets have RCBO's or RCD's fitted which is a requirement for all new builds or replacement consumer units.

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

you could always find your local part "P" qualified sparky to check it out for you

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

My house was built in 1949 and the sockets are uniformly at 600 mm up from the floor which works for me. Having seen the Mother in Law struggling with skirting level sockets when she was 90, I can only say get rid of them.

Edited By V8Eng on 12/06/2014 15:56:07

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

In the UK any electrical work other than minor jobs either require building control or the sparky needs to be registered better to use the latter as it removes all the hassle and they can test the installation and issue a certificate once the work is complete. Part P applies to DIYers or competent person and it is a legal requirement.

About the only service you can work on as a DIY job is water.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

You can do gas as well but not for anyone else and certainly not for money. You need to get it commissioned and signed off by a CORGI guy (or whatever they are called these days). You can take the same approach with electrical, getting it inspected, tested and signed off by a competent person.

The training courses for gas and electricity in the UK are ridiculously expensive which prevents non professionals from becoming officially "competent", even if (like me) they are conversant with the regs and have (like me) spent some years developing high voltage products that could kill you. Hell, I even developed an RCD which went into volume production but am not considered competent.

Having rewired (and replumbed) several houses or extensions over the years, I can say that the workmanship of professionals can be very variable and their interpretation of the regs very "interesting".

Murray

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Very much like our late neighbor who was a qualified Electrician. He sold his house and moved abroad leaving a trail of debt. The worst bit is that he used non compatable thermal trips in his box and now the new owner is reaping the rewards of that. Only yesterday one of the trips went duff and overheated and has scorched the box. Its being a bit expensive so far as some wiring in the garden has now been shorted out in the last lot of bad weather, Competent electrician, no way.

Clive

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

It is illegal to do anything with gas unless you have the correct Gas Safe qualification and you'll have real problems getting it signed off if you do.

To show how tight it is my mate works for southern gas and used to fit appliances including boilers but his qualification lapsed so he can no longer do that part of the job.

The reasoning is to keep he idiots away from things that can kill after all not all have your skills.

[frank brownParticipant @frankbrown22225]

As far as I am concerned in a fitted kitchen, all built in kit (plinth heaters, washing machines, dishwasher. . .) all need their sockets ON the skirting board, So access to them is possible via the plinth front. Elsewhere is just plain stupid. The electricity fellas should not be concerned about flooding as this is always due to a double fault situation.

Frank

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Funny that just had a kitchen fitted all the sockets are not at skirting level they are behind the units, washing m/c under the sink easy to get too, dryer socket behind the dryer and fridge/freezer behind the fridge. All plain plugs sockets with no switch with fused double pole isolators above the worktop making it easy to isolate supply. Cables on appliances are long enough to allow them to be plugged in before the appliance is fitted POP

I would find it extremely difficult to grovel about on the floor to either plug things in or unplug them imagine trying to do that with 6" of water on the floor.

To quote:-   lEE Wiring Regulations 17th Edition

"Appliances built into kitchen furniture (integrated appliances) should be connected to a socket-outlet
or switch fused connection unit that is accessible when the appliance is in place and in normal use.
Alternatively, where an appliance is supplied from a socket-outlet or a connection unit, these should
be controlled by an accessible double-pole switch or switched fused connection unit."

Would not class under the units as accessible.

Edited By Bob Brown 1 on 12/06/2014 19:02:57

Edited By Bob Brown 1 on 12/06/2014 19:04:03

[websnailParticipant @websnail]

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 12/06/2014 18:01:06:

It is illegal to do anything with gas unless you have the correct Gas Safe qualification and you'll have real problems getting it signed off if you do.

To show how tight it is my mate works for southern gas and used to fit appliances including boilers but his qualification lapsed so he can no longer do that part of the job.

The reasoning is to keep he idiots away from things that can kill after all not all have your skills.

I agree.

Up to April this year I was on the Gas Safe register. To 'do' gas, you need to get 100% pass mark on both practical and theory, on the core gas 'CCN1' cert and each and every 'add on' cert ie, space heaters, boilers, cookers etc

AND re-take them all, with another 100% past mark, each and every 5 years.

And pay each year to be included on the Gas Safe register.

As for signing off other peoples work, I'd never do it in a million years for 2 reasons.

1). Without doing all the work, I'd have no idea of the materials used, procedures and standards. It's also illegal.

2). I've have to invest thousands of pounds in training / assessments and spend unpaid hours keeping up my certs up to date, just to sign off a job done on the cheap. No way.

If I go to a job and find out that it's iffy (or think it is), It's my legal duty to report it and drop both the original cowboy and the signing off gas fitter 'in it'. It's the only way I can protect myself.

[ANDY CAWLEYParticipant @andycawley24921]

When I had my shed built I decided to have twice as many sockets as I thought I would need. I planned to have them mounted on the roof beams which were at a height where I could easily reach. The logic was that the cables would not be trailing over work benches. My electrician pal found this very difficult to accept and persuaded me to have sockets fitted at the conventional height, just above the work surfaces. We reached an compromise and he fitted some sockets to the beam that went accross the middle of the shed.

How I wish I had stuck to my guns and had all the sockets mounted on high.

Despite having a seemingly extravagant number of sockets fitted I still one of those multi socket adapters in my battery charging area!

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I've had two bad electrical shocks, both off installations by fully qualified people. In my first house a plasterer was badly injured after being thrown off a ladder, the supply people had removed a meter but left the wires ,live , in the wall. Nuff said.

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Lots of good advice there, chaps – thank you.

Just as reassurance, for anyone who thought otherwise – I shall NOT be doing any of the installation work, gas or electrical!! Have done a bit of DIY wiggly amps stuff in the past (quite safely and successfully) but this is way beyond my remit!

Thanks again

Rgds

Bill

[David Lawrence 2Participant @davidlawrence2]

As for qualified electritions, i have been to 3 photo studios in my time to sort out a problem with the electrics. once at the national phyisical labs in Teddington were the electrition blow a 200 amp fuse twice and then a 900 amp fuse in the street putting the whole labs in darkness. Then at the middelsex hospital in London which no earth on the 2nd floor, removed by the in house guys and not put back. Then at a suppliers shop ware a newly quilified sparks had put a screw right through the ring main cable, not once but 6 times. all these installations had not been tested with an avo meter or better. as for my workshop i put in ega round trunking at roof level and had severl drop down tubes to double sockets which looks good and should last a few years.

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