Eclipse E225 scriber

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I have just purchase one via ebay

Not a big deal, but I note the rather wide variation in price

MichaelG.

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Edited By Michael Gilligan on 18/08/2023 06:37:06

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

[VicParticipant @vic]

I bought one of those many years ago. I very rarely use it but it’s a nicely designed and made item. I don’t think I paid more than four or five quid at the time but as I say, it was a while ago.
I also bought some Starrett dividers like these at a show for about three quid, staggered by the price now!

**LINK**

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

There is always a large variation in price for what is obviously the same product which you can easily see and judge by the photographs and descriptions that are often identical. This has always puzzled me because why would you pay the higher price and do people actually pay a higher price in the misguided belief that they will receive a better quality product? The lower prices sometimes have a separate delivery charge added that makes them slightly more comparable to the higher prices which have the delivery costs included, but not always. Personally, I always search for the lowest priced item which often appears when you have selected the particular product you want to buy.

I have just bought a 13.5mm drill bit for £1.08 which is coming from Germany but with a £4.94 delivery charge. However, this is still cheaper than one from a UK supplier with 'free' postage & packing. Even at that price I have every confidence, when it arrives, that it will be of satisfactory quality because I have bought cheap drills before and can't really tell the difference from my sets of Dormers in performance. I know others will disagree.

I bought a job-lot of these Eclipse scribers many years ago from the closing-down clearance of Mercer's in Cleckheaton and gave them to colleagues in appreciation for assistance rendered. I am pleased to see that they are still available, although I would imagine that they are no longer manufactured in the UK, but what is these days?

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi MichaelG, I had a look in my old Eclipse catalogue from the sixties, but the E in the number isn't mentioned, it just quotes No.225, and in the price list from 4th March 1968 it cost £0-8-3, about 41p. The length of it was 4-3/4" when open & 4-5/8" when closed. Maybe the E was added to denote a new shorter design of the same item. Fascinating!

Regards Nick.

P. S. About £11.00 seems to be the most common price.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 18/08/2023 08:30:00

[Swarf, Mostly!Participant @swarfmostly]

Michael,

It was a long, long time ago but when I bought mine, the standard tip was hardened steel. The tungsten carbide tips were an optional extra.

Best regards,

Swarf, Mostly!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

My old one [ gone AWOL ]Had the long steel point … I just thought £4.99 with free postage seemed pretty good.

immediately after my purchase, the Seller had Qty.4 available, so I thought it worth mentioning here.

There may, or may not, be thousands more lurking somewhere.

MichaelG.

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Thanks Michael, just ordered one. At 09:21 there is still one left.

Brian G

Edit:  In case anybody doesn't know, Zoro and Cromwell are both part of the same firm, Cromwell retail prices are often much higher but they offer large trade discounts (not much use to most of us though).  Sometimes however the same item is cheaper on the Cromwell site so it is worth checking both before ordering.  BG

Edited By Brian G on 18/08/2023 09:27:46

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Brian

Thanks for the reminder that both Zoro and Cromwell are different faces of the same firm. Which is basically a drop-ship order fulfilment site not a supply from stock outfit. I imagine their suppliers basically treat the Zoro / Cromwell cut as advertising and outsourcing all the hassle of dealing with individual customers.

The sites aren't exactly comparison friendly! Rarely worth the mucking about unless the item is expensive. I've finally grown up enough to realise that "could have saved a quid or two" isn't worth the effort for something half way reasonably priced for what it is.

As Michael showed Google really is your friend for such things.

Clive

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Hello,

Anyone notice that the Eclipse 227 scribe is available for £4.95 (including postage) from the same supplier? I prefer the 227 myself, but probably in a minority of one.

I often buy from Zoro and would not dream of comparing prices with Cromwell. Zoro are just so much cheaper. The only niggle about their website is when buying material. For example, the ground flat stock is listed in no logical order, so it is a pain to find what you want.

Andrew.

Edited By Andrew Tinsley on 18/08/2023 10:11:21

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Chris Crew on 18/08/2023 08:23:45:…

… I have bought cheap drills before and can't really tell the difference from my sets of Dormers in performance. I know others will disagree.

I bought a job-lot of these Eclipse scribers many years ago from the closing-down clearance of Mercer's in Cleckheaton and gave them to colleagues in appreciation for assistance rendered. I am pleased to see that they are still available, although I would imagine that they are no longer manufactured in the UK, but what is these days?

Cheap versus well-made drills like Dormers are difficult to compare because so much depends on how they are used.

Industry, especially manufacturing, put a lot of effort into getting the maximum value out of cutting tools. One way of doing this is to buy reliable cutters and operate them within tightly specified limits. Running within specified limits allows tool life to be measured and compared with tool-cost. Many factors apply, for example it's probably not worth buying best quality to drill a few low tolerance holes in soft metal. Down-time due to tool changing is often a major expense. When usage is controlled, it becomes obvious whether more expensive high-spec drills are worth the investment, or it's cheaper overall to buy middle or low-specification drills. In industry, it's all about money!

Jobbing workshops, and especially hobbyists, work in ways that make it difficult to assess tool life. Typically, the same drill is used on different materials, different thicknesses, different machines, with and without coolant, by an operator working at different speeds. The work can be abusive, for example drilling thin steel-sheet without a backing, struggling into work-hardening stainless, by pushing too hard, not clearing swarf and many other faults. Much depends on the type of work being done: in my rough workshop, it makes sense to buy inexpensive mid-range, and treat twist-drills as consumables. When better is needed, I buy one in specially and look after it. Others work in ways where it makes sense for their tools to be well-made and looked after, only buying cheap on special occasions. After several years I suspect most hobby workshops end up with a mix of inexpensive tools for rough and a selection of better tools only used when better is really needed.

Eclipse is a trademark. It was registered by James Neill and Co (Sheffield) in 1909. Neill were a major player in steel-making and tools, absorbing other famous firms like Moore and Wright as they grew. In 1985 Neill bought Spear and Jackson, and in 1995 renamed the whole company Spear and Jackson. In 2014 Spear and Jackson were bought by SNH Global Holdings Ltd. SNH describe themselves: 'SNH has become a global business. With a historically strong presence in China and the UK, we have extended our operations into other territories and now have manufacturing sites, distribution centres and sales offices in key locations around the world. Each of these divisions operates autonomously within the Group. This autonomy, we believe, encourages management independence, entrepreneurism and ownership.' List of companies here.

As is the case with multinationals, products are made wherever in the world it happens to be most profitable.

I'm pleased to say UK Engineering is holding it's own. The value produced is about the same as it ever was. True that large numbers of firms making ordinary products went to the wall, often in a sad welter of mismanagement, poor labour relations and low productivity. Unfortunately lots of interesting jobs went too – agonising. Surviving firms moved up-market, and mostly only make expensive high-end products. Rather than lots of old-fashioned firms scratching a living making pots, pans, and pen-knives, the same money today is earned from high-tech – MRI scanners, aerospace, and electronics etc. British Industry and the character of the workforce has changed, not disappeared, and it's globalised. Difficult to buy anything these days and be certain it was specifically made in one country only. Designed in the West, made in the East is a common pattern, and quite likely an international holding company has a head office in Lichtenstein, banks in the Caymans, is registered in Switzerland, trades on the London Stock Exchange, and pays tax in Eire! Though it makes us rich, I doubt it's a good thing in the long run.

Dave

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Hi All,

supposedly I just bought the “last one” from the same seller as Michael. Still listed as last one again though…

We often get over £12 for these?

Cheers, Martin

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

Dave (SoD),

I actually agree with all of what you say. We have within our family a very highly qualified and respected economist, whose name I will not reveal, who works for a well-known industry body whose name I will also not reveal.

However, when she was working towards her PhD I asked her what the subject of her thesis was to be to which she replied British manufacturing industry. Somewhat taken aback, I light-heartedly responded by saying that it would surely be the shortest PhD thesis in academic history! The more serious reply was that I should not think of British manufacturing industry in the traditional manner which was entirely correct, as you point out.

I know we all like to think of the traditional skilled craftsman cycling to work in the morning in his blue overalls with a pipe clenched between his teeth to work all day in a grubby engineering shop producing some very high quality tools and equipment, but it's not like that anymore even if it ever was. It's a bit like going misty eyed at the thought of the local pick-up goods train steaming majestically into a county town on a warm English summer's evening. Both very nice thoughts, but unfortunately both total fantasy!

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

I’m not sure how or why Brian raised the Zoro/Cromwell topic. Was it from Zoro’s eBay account that Michael bought his scriber? I can’t tell.

Zoro/Cromwell/Grainger aren't just drop-shippers; they have several of their own brands covering a huge range of products, e.g. Sherwood, SwissTech, Kennedy, Senator.

Zoro/Cromwell have a very large distribution centre in Leicester.

Chris could have bought a nice Sherwood ground flute 13.5mm jobber or stub drill from Zoro for nearly £2 less* than his German purchase of unknown branding.

Chris’s positive experience with cheap drills as opposed to e.g. Dormers sadly doesn't reflect my own.

*Provided his order qualified for free postage. I have never paid for postage on a Zoro order.

Edited By Bill Phinn on 18/08/2023 12:26:24

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 18/08/2023 12:24:02:

I’m not sure how or why Brian raised the Zoro/Cromwell topic. Was it from Zoro’s eBay account that Michael bought his scriber? I can’t tell.

[…]

.

Close inspection of the screenshot that I posted should reveal all, Bill

MichaelG.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/08/2023 12:35:36:

Posted by Bill Phinn on 18/08/2023 12:24:02:

I’m not sure how or why Brian raised the Zoro/Cromwell topic. Was it from Zoro’s eBay account that Michael bought his scriber? I can’t tell.

[…]

.

Close inspection of the screenshot that I posted should reveal all, Bill

MichaelG.

Not really, Michael; the one you bought was the one in the middle for £4.99, wasn’t it?

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

"Chris could have bought a nice Sherwood ground flute 13.5mm jobber or stub drill from Zoro for nearly £2 less* than his German purchase of unknown branding".

That's good to know, thank you for the tip. Being a bit of an eBay junkie, if only because we live in the middle of nowhere and it's easier to shop online rather than driving into the nearest towns or city, I do try to get the best prices on obviously identical products. The best I could come up with from the UK suppliers I have bought from before was £8 – £9, hence I thought the German alternative was worth a punt. I must admit it crossed my mind that post-Brexit import obstacles might have appeared but the item arrived this morning just after my previous posting and only three days after placing the order.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 18/08/2023 12:51:44:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/08/2023 12:35:36:

Posted by Bill Phinn on 18/08/2023 12:24:02:

I’m not sure how or why Brian raised the Zoro/Cromwell topic. Was it from Zoro’s eBay account that Michael bought his scriber? I can’t tell.

[…]

.

Close inspection of the screenshot that I posted should reveal all, Bill

MichaelG.

Not really, Michael; the one you bought was the one in the middle for £4.99, wasn’t it?

.

Yes, Bill … as can be deduced from the ‘visited’ colour of the text

The Zoro/Cromwell offerings, being adjacent to that, were presumably what Brian picked-up on.

MichaelG.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/08/2023 13:30:04:

Posted by Bill Phinn on 18/08/2023 12:51:44:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/08/2023 12:35:36:

Posted by Bill Phinn on 18/08/2023 12:24:02:

I’m not sure how or why Brian raised the Zoro/Cromwell topic. Was it from Zoro’s eBay account that Michael bought his scriber? I can’t tell.

[…]

.

Close inspection of the screenshot that I posted should reveal all, Bill

MichaelG.

Not really, Michael; the one you bought was the one in the middle for £4.99, wasn’t it?

 

.

Yes, Bill … as can be deduced from the ‘visited’ colour of the text

The Zoro/Cromwell offerings, being adjacent to that, were presumably what Brian picked-up on.

MichaelG.

Thank you, Michael. I was assuming, obviously wrongly, that the middle item you purchased at £4.99 might also be from Zoro/Cromwell but that it just doesn’t say as much on the screenshot.

 

Edited By Bill Phinn on 18/08/2023 13:57:14

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

It was the difference between the Zoro/Cromwell prices in the light of Michael's initial comment about price variation that prompted my comment. To be fair one listing was for the steel and the other the Carbide version of the scriber, but having said that, the difference is more than the price of a replacement carbide tip.

I don't know if things have changed, but although I used them a lot when buying for the factory, I stopped using Cromwell's local branch for personal items some years ago when I found they charged more for counter sales than their catalogue price (yet another price variation).

Brian G

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Footnote:

I doubt if it is mere coincidence that the ebay seller that I purchased from is named  sandjtoolsdirect

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 18/08/2023 14:35:09

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

.

Edited By Bill Phinn on 18/08/2023 14:45:50

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 18/08/2023 14:44:49:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/08/2023 14:32:56:

Footnote:

I doubt if it is mere coincidence that the ebay seller that I purchased from is named sandjtoolsdirect

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 18/08/2023 14:35:09

Yes, Spear and Jackson.

I bought two Eclipse tap wrenches from that seller several years back. One was fine, but the E142 couldn't hold a tap straight. The seller refunded me instantly. I now use it to hold a countersink for hand deburring.

 

Edited By Bill Phinn on 18/08/2023 14:47:44

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

The little scriber arrived today, and seems fine

It’s smaller than I remember my old one being, but it is ‘as described’

The pocket clip does seem disproportionately large, but can be easily removed.

MichaelG.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Here you go, a comparison of two models, the new No.225, which arrived a couple of days ago, and my original No.20

The No.20 seems to be about 6.5mm diameter across the knurling, whereas the 225 is about 7.1mm

Going by the catalogue screenshot on the previous page, I assume my No.20 must be pre-1968, but post 1909, when James Neill first started using Eclipse as a brand name (I think).

See also Grace's Guide
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/James_Neill_and_Co_(Sheffield)

Bill

 

Edited By peak4 on 24/08/2023 19:04:21

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