Easy Start

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

I know that this is not strictly a model engineering question, but lots of forumites work on engines, so I may get an opinion or a measured unbiased reply to something that is, by many , considered a myth. Many on this forum have years of experience so it seems a sensible place for opinion.

If Easy Start is used too often on an engine, does it get dependent on it. Does the Easy Start do any damage to the engine, or is the whole thing a myth.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Sam L

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember12892]

[This posting has been removed]

[Roger BParticipant @rogerb61624]

No one will bother with Easystart if the engine will start without it. If you have to use easy start the engine already has significant problems. So no it is a myth. if you have to use easy start you will always need it, the engine is already past it's best. I will put in a caveat for very low temperatures but my 13 year old diesel car started instantly having been standing outside in -17°C for several days. The idling fuel consumption was ~4 times normal until the gearbox warmed up but we could drive away.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Easy Start is mostly Ether, the engine doesn't think it's Cocaine. The only place I have seen it used a lot was hydroplane racing with Methanol. But then Methanol is just as good a degreaser as Ether.

Assuming you have good fuel and spark for petrol or good diesel that only leaves bad valve seats, tight tappets or worst busted rings. In other words the compression may be too low.

[Mick HenshallParticipant @mickhenshall99321]

On engines such as lawn mowers you could put a few drops of petrol in through plug hole or brake fluid works also,

don't need much,I use it to see if an old engine will start before a rebuild

Mick

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

My Brother and I ran a Bedford TK for several years, during the summer months it would start on the button from cold but come the winter it wouldnt start to save its life unless it had a squirt of easy start, a new pump and injectors and a successful compression test made no difference until the warmer months when it would happily start without its fix.

Martin P

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Let’s be complete and relate the use of ether starting fluids with compression-ignition (diesel) engines.

Roger B is spot on. An engine that is worn and unable to raise enough adiabatic temperature gain within the combustion space, at cranking speed, is already past its best if it was not designed for assisted starting in this way.

Ether does not burn progressively – the flame path is so fast that it explodes within the combustion space producing much higher than design pressure, This rapid expansion is likely to break the top compression ring initially – and perhaps lower rings as well, if continued to destruction. The top ring will already have been out-of-spec on side clearance and it will only get worse, not better! In severe cases the ring parts can break away the tops of the piston crown and escape – not good for the engine!

Some engines have starting aids fitted as original equipment – usually direct injection engines – and often the starting fluid is not diethyl ether based, or contains much less ether than the usual can of ‘Easystart’. These are often lower compression engines with turbochargers which operate to increase the effective combustion pressure (and the adiabatic temperature rise) when at normal operating speeds. It is one reason why turbocharged engines often require extra piston cooling than for a naturally aspirated engine derivative.

Errors in the use of starting sprays can include usage where heater plugs are already fitted and operational, when the spray can explode within the induction manifold, occasionally with disastrous consequences.

[john halfpennyParticipant @johnhalfpenny52803]

Martin has it. Engines do not become addicted to Easy Start, they are simply worn to a state where starting is difficult in adverse (typically cold) conditions, and will not start without it because their mechanical condition does not improve over time.

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

If the engine is already worn out and the only way to get it to run is Easy Start, then OK, go for it.

However using it as a substitute for buying a new battery, not so good – it washes oil off the cylinder bores, and, worse, tends to detonate (you'll often hear severe knocking as it fires up) which may break the piston rings.

Some older diesels were a pain to start from cold (see Martin's post above), especially those with indirect injection. Sometimes you had to make a decision – Easy Start, or crank it continuously for 30+ seconds till it started to fire. There was a reason they had those very heavy duty CAV starters, and I favoured the latter (or fit a KiGass pump).

edit: NDIY beat me to it, with more details

Edited By Andy Stopford on 28/06/2021 20:51:46

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by john halfpenny on 28/06/2021 20:47:24:

Martin has it. Engines do not become addicted to Easy Start, they are simply worn to a state where starting is difficult in adverse (typically cold) conditions, and will not start without it because their mechanical condition does not improve over time.

Sadly the point I was trying to make was there was nothing wrong with our engine, it was an ex army recon unit we bought and fitted to the truck straight out of the crate as surplus stock.

Martin P

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Some additional info…

Some older diesels were a pain to start from cold

Yes, Andy, and some of those designs were later modified by adding glow plugs (not the aero engines). Drip feed of fuel onto a glow plug in the induction manifold was another way of heating the ingoing gases (so an actual small fire burning in the manifold) before attempting to start the engine. All a diesel engine requires is sufficient temperature to effectively ignite the spray from the injector (as well as the correct spray pattern – some injectors had an auxiliary jet which spayed toward the glowplug – and timing, of course).

Playing a gas flame on the manifold, or preheating the engine coolant are tricks and a more recent way of getting a diesel engine started in colder conditions. In the colder parts of the US, some farmers simply leave their tractors ‘plugged in’ overnight.

I personally knew of one person who simply left his tractor ‘ticking over’ all night long when it was freezing weather – not exactly a preferred method, but it worked for a while! It was more reliable than rolling the tractor down the hill to try to get it running in the morning!

If the engine was partially igniting the charge, but insufficiently to fire up properly (plenty of smoke, but not enough to fire up properly) an unlit propane torch in the manifold could work. It acts like easystart without the risk of detonation, as propane will not self ignite in a diesel engine at usual compression ratios. Some stationary diesel engines (the Lister CS, for instance) have been partially fuelled on propane, using the diesel injection to provide the ignition source for the ‘alternative fuel’ and to make up the required amount of fuel as the load alters.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

If you have to use easy start more than a couple of times you had better start looking for the real problem and yes I do speak from experience, 50+ years of it!

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

The bigger the engine the lower the compression ration ! I have 4 13L V8 diesels which were fitted with ether injetion for cold starting from new – comp ratio 17/1. A small lister or petter may have a comp ratio of 22/1 both these manufactures used oil plungers to put oil above the piston to aid cold starting which if done right they would always start. Bearing in mind the principles of the diesel engine then introducing heat to the air intake will aid starting be it a burning rag or a hair drier. Plan B was the thermostart that burnt fuel in the intake manifold a truely wonderful device !

EASY start was a VERY last resort ! Bit like a defibulator for a heart patient !

Petrol or brake and clutch cleaner is a more gentle option.

During the 2ww my mother as a 20 something would hand crank a 4 pot Lister that drove a generator to power a searchlight – now that IS life or death – The engine didn't even have an electric start. Noel.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by noel shelley on 28/06/2021 22:42:00:

…

During the 2ww my mother as a 20 something would hand crank a 4 pot Lister that drove a generator to power a searchlight – now that IS life or death – The engine didn't even have an electric start. Noel.

Was that a diesel? If so, I would fully expect it to have some form of decompression while hand cranking? Even my little Hatz engines have decompressors (automatic ones on those).

WWII was a dangerous time for many ladies. My mum had both arms in slings (at least one broken wrist) at the same time from cranking a petrol engine which back-fired. I believe she already knew how not to grip the starting handle (she grew up on a farm) but that did not prevent the first injury. Repeating the starting procedure with her other hand was considered very ‘naughty’ by her doctor!

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

I have an old (20 years) lawnmower. First start of the season is always difficult. I squirt gas from a gas blow lamp down the carburettor and away we go. Perhaps gummed up rings is the cause of the problem, but why bother stripping it all down, new head gasket, rings, probable stripped head studs when a squirt of gas fixes it ?

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Thats why the old model diesel engines used ether based fuel, it ignites at relatively low compression

So your clunky old motor gets a leg up to get started and any detonation issues are minimised by the wonky cylinder sealing at startup

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

First start of the lawnmower every year on old fuel is always a lottery for me. I always take the can of easystart out of the shed to threaten the mower if it doesn't start. Not needed to use it for a few years since using super grade fuel that seems ok.

[Tim HammondParticipant @timhammond72264]

Posted by martin perman on 28/06/2021 20:37:23:

My Brother and I ran a Bedford TK for several years, during the summer months it would start on the button from cold but come the winter it wouldnt start to save its life unless it had a squirt of easy start, a new pump and injectors and a successful compression test made no difference until the warmer months when it would happily start without its fix.

Martin P

Was there not a "thermostart" fitted to the inlet manifold of the engine? All of the TK engines I ever worked on had them, and would guarantee starting whatever the outside temperature.

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

During my appentice days at container terminal I remember the mechanics would start an old forklift truck by taking off the air cleaner, then dip a rag in oil and light it up and hold it next to the intake. The flame would be sucked in and the poor old perkins would come to life….until I tried that is… sucked the rag clean out of my hand into the intake!

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

NDIY , Yes it was a 4 pot lister, with 4 decompessors, water cooled by thermosyphon ! Ladies in those day must have been made of sterner stuff, You can imagine the reply if you asked a modern young "lady" to do this job ! Best wishes Noel.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

I helped move an ex military JP four pot Lister with a large generator attached from MK to Internal Fire in Wales, a mate took the engine and I took the generator on a trailer, when it was reassembled it took four grown men, two on the handle and two on a length of rope to spin it over with the decompressors open, on our first attempt one compressor was closed and we all stopped winding

Martin P

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

A normal engine can be damaged by the use of Easy Start. It tends to dry the bores, encouraging wear, and combustion is quite violent. This kicks the engine into life so violently that compression heat causes the engine to run more or less normally. (Light load misfires are quite common after first fire, until the pistons warm through. )

Ether was only used for starting true compression ignition engines at temperatures below – 30 C.

Until then, the normal induction heating methods sufficed

The "diesel" and glow plug engines used in model aircraft, model boats, and model racing cars have lubricant (often castor oil ) mixed with the fuel, as do conventional spark ignition two strokes, with their petrol

If a conventional engine requires ether to start under normal (Temperate ) temperatures,l there is something wrong.

Under moderate frost conditions an indirect injection engine should start, even if it misfires under light or no load conditions, once the heater plugs or thermostart have been deactivated..

Under severe frost conditions, a direct injection engine should start, even if it light load misfires until it warms a little.

The quickest way of warming the engine is put bit under load, (Although not excessive, for fear of producing bore scuffing, or even seizure )

Modern electronically controlled engines will keep the heater plugs energised after start up to ensure consistent combustion. Once the engine has reached suitable oil and coolant temperatures, the ECU will de-energise the heaters

If a conventional engine requires ether at normal ambient temperatures, the fault needs to be found, whether timing or lack of compression..

Howard

Edited By Howard Lewis on 29/06/2021 11:18:31

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by noel shelley on 29/06/2021 10:55:28:

NDIY , Yes it was a 4 pot lister, with 4 decompessors, water cooled by thermosyphon ! Ladies in those day must have been made of sterner stuff, You can imagine the reply if you asked a modern young "lady" to do this job ! Best wishes Noel.

I expect some the ladies in the land army helped start the single cylinder two stroke diesels and semi diesels of the day. I’ve started a Field Marshall on my own in the past (couldn’t do it now), but not from stone cold. It is so much easier with two people on that long starting handle…

I don’t suppose that many young ladies want to be as active as those back then, but ‘needs must’ was the order of the day! But, nevertheless, there are quite a lot that regularly inhabit the local gym and ladies sports athletes are very competitive, so there are plenty about that could easily adapt and many more that would if they really had to.

As I always argue, ladies will never quite be the complete equal of men in every way, because of the physical differences – but they are in all other comparisons (and sometimes considerably better). Hunters and gatherers were our predecessors and humans have not yet evolved to change that completely.🙂. Same argument goes for vegetarians v carnivores – we are omnivores ( but cooked meat skews the comparison somewhat).

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

If you are worried about easy start , just use a gas blowlamp without lighting it. I started many engines with it.

Steve.

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