E5 Petrol [please discuss]

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

On Michael Gilligan Said:

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

[…]

Michael’s car might run as usefully on E10 as it does on E5.

[…]

Please define “usefully”

… that should take you a while 🙂

MichaelG.

Glad you asked, I chose ‘usefully’ carefully!

E100, E10, E5, Leaded Petrol and Diesel all have different densities and heat values.  They aren’t one size fits all.

First fuel issue is whether the engine will run at all.  Filling a petrol car with Diesel isn’t smart!  Even worse, a diesel filled with petrol might go rather a long way before internal damage brings it to a stop.  Neither combination is useful!

Second issue is the wrong grade of fuel might cause an engine to seriously underperform.  Pinking, back-firing, catalyser damage, and power loss etc.   That the engine and fuel keep going might be useful in a ‘get me home’ situation though.  Otherwise, not acceptable.

Third issue is that the fuel underperforms in a non-critical way, such as reduced range, power, or acceleration.  E100, almost pure Ethanol, has about half the heat value of petrol, so a tankful of it will only get about half the MPG.  Shock horror, except MPG is a dubious way of measuring fuel performance.  MPG doesn’t matter if Ethanol is less than half the price of Petrol because the motorist gets more miles for his money which is useful.  However, E100 is less useful when range matters more than cost, especially aircraft!

Same cost argument applies to petrol diluted with ethanol, like E5, E10 and E30.  Although MPG is reduced, the cost per mile should be cheaper than pure petrol, and that’s useful.   Though measuring MPG made good sense when all cars used fuel of the same heat value, it’s pretty misleading in 2024.

Staying with cost, many towns and cities have started to charge for polluting vehicles, and it’s age and their ability to burn greener fuels that decide the tariff,.  Useful for Londoners to own an up-to-date E10 capable car, rather than a 1947 leaded Landrover.

Lastly, future proofing is useful!   Not so long ago, leaded petrol was available at every forecourt in the land, common as muck.  Now it’s a speciality purchase.   More recently alcohol has been added to petrol, and blends now dominate the market.   Ideally the government wants us all on E10, with E5 provided as a temporary stepping stone.   Though removing E5 isn’t being pushed hard, Michael started this topic because he was concerned buying a car today that only ran on E5 would become a problem.  It will.    When E5 is taken off the market, the ability of a vehicle to run on E10 will be ‘useful‘, even if performance drops a bit.

Dave

 

 

Not sure about a 1947 Landy but think it’s exempt from London ULEZ charges due to its age, I quote “All vehicles built before 1 January 1973”.

My 2015 diesel is not exempt but an older polluter might well be, Strange logic or what!

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

[…] Michael started this topic because he was concerned buying a car today that only ran on E5 would become a problem.  […]

An excellent try, Dave … and most of your points are valid, except for that fundamental one.

Please read my opening post carefully

MichaelG.

.

Edit: [for convenient reference ] __ I wrote:

… so in the present market I will continue to use E5 ‘super unleaded’ just as I currently do.

[Graham TitmanParticipant @grahamtitman81812]

My previous vehicle a 69 plate Toyota Rav4 when i got it after a couple of thousand miles it did 53 to 54 mpg when E10 came onto the market i swapped because it was cheaper over the next 1000 mile fuel consumption went down to 44 to 45 mpg at that point i went back to using E5 petrol and the fuel consumpton went slowly back to the low 50s but it never got as high as it stared out .All my bikes i run on E5 and yesterday september 1st we paid £1 -69 A litre.

[VicParticipant @vic]

I use this quite a bit as my LPS is Shell. I didn’t know about this though.

https://youtu.be/Wp9MzzW0hs0?si=gu59YZjg0QbG27PU

 

[duncan webster 1]

On duncan webster 1 Said:

Anyone remember Cleveland Discoll, I think that had ethanol in it, but probably misremembered

Yes Duncan looks like they sold it as an anti knock fuel.

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

I don’t know if this is a similar or linked thing but in 1973 father replaced his Volvo 145 estate with one of the earliest 145e models with Bosch electronic fuel injection.

He regularly put 5* petrol in, although it would run on 2* (no such thing as unleaded then) because he got more mpg which more that paid for the difference.

The only explanation I can think of is that as it was an automatic (BW35 3 speed torque convertor) the 5* produced more power so the gear changes happened at lower speeds – but that is only a guess.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

As promised:

These are the figures for the month of September 2024

Miles = 596.1

Average Speed =  28 mph

Average Fuel Consumption = 28.6 mpg

Fuel = Tesco Momentum E5

Note: This is not the start, or end, of some great scientific experiment … just a straight record  from my first full month of driving the car.

Journeys were a “typical” mix of Motorway and local shopping trips [based in North Wales] … no off-road usage yet.

For a medium-size 4×4 with a 2.4 litre engine and the aerodynamics of a brick, I think the figures are very reasonable.

MichaelG.

[VicParticipant @vic]

The rumour is the freeze on pump prices will end in the October budget. Effectively putting the price up 5p a Litre? Maybe top up your tanks the day before?

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

Interesting thread this.

 

According to Volvo my 2009 V70 2.5 petrol (£710 “car tax”) can run on E5 or E10 fuel.

https://www.volvocarspoole.co.uk/news/e10-petrol-and-volvo-models/110347

some S40 and V40 models can’t use E10…

I tend to get fuel from a supermarket as I drive past on my to work. It’s done 180,000 miles and still gives 25 mpg.

Never noticed any improvements using better quality fuel.

 

My 2007 Ural motorcycle was a disaster when I started having to use E5 fuel. All the fuel lines swelled up, the carb diaphragms wouldn’t go back in when removed and the bike didn’t run well. It took a while to get the carbs and timing right.

 

I don’t think lack of petrol will be an issue during my lifetime.

 

Jimb

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