E5 Petrol [please discuss]

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Unless I’ve missed it somewhere above, I think there is a light misunderstanding of the use of E in E5 & E10 fuels (EN228).
Originally it was intended just to refer to Ethanol, but has now expanded to the Environmentally friendly additives, which includes Methanol, up to 3% in EU standards for automotive fuel, also IPA and others, though it may vary from area to area.
N.B. Something may have changed in The UK post Brexit
https://carbonrecycling.com/industries/gasoline-blending

Have a look at this pdf or alternative website; both UK
https://www.highlandfuels.co.uk/documents/Unlead-Petrol-Specification.pdf

Gasoline EN 228

And another one
https://www.methanol.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/4.-Greg-Dolan-Overview-of-Global-Methanol-Fuel-Blending.pdf

Bill

[Don CoxParticipant @doncox80133]

I would think the knock sensor(s) would be responsible for preventing BMWs “pinking”, not the Vanos valve timing.  Anyway, of far greater importance is the effect of the stupid Ethanol fuel additive on 2 stroke garden machinery.  Some carbs react very badly to the stuff, others seem to be unaffected running on contentedly into old age.  I have changed to mixing my 2 stroke fuel from E5 and adding fuel preserver to stop the it from going off because of the time I store it.

[Michael Gilligan]

On Michael Gilligan Said:

On Vic Said:

I’ve been running my car on E5 for quite some time but I saw something recently that said it’s a waste of time if you can run E10 (I can) in your car. I need to top up soon so I was planning on filling up with E10 unless someone can persuade me otherwise?

Let me try to persuade you otherwise, Vic

[and I think Jason will support my findings]

The BMW 2.5 engine is capable of running without “pinking”on most fuel, because the VVT is very sophisticated… BUT … the general difference in performance is immediately obvious to the driver.

Note also the closing paragraph that I quoted from SUZUKI

… By all means try it for yourself.

MichaelG.

I believe it was a video I saw. And I think they said an engine runs hotter on E5 than E10.
I’m reasonably sure I get more mpg running on E5 but I don’t think it offsets the additional cost.

 

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

According to the interweb adding ethanol to fuel increases it’s knock resistance and makes the engine run cooler

https://www.google.com/search?q=ethanol+knock+resistance&oq=ethanol+knock+&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCAgBEAAYFhgeMgoIABBFGBYYHhg5MggIARAAGBYYHjIICAIQABgWGB4yDQgDEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyCggEEAAYgAQYogQyCggFEAAYgAQYogQyCggGEAAYogQYiQXSAQg4MjI3ajBqN6gCFLACAQ&client=ms-android-huawei-rev1&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

I think the answer to how long any petrol will be available at reasonable cost is impossible to answer and would certainly involve politics. We don’t ant to go there…

On fuel types I’ve had some experiences.
Back in the mid 80’s when unleaded was firt made available it was much cheaper than regular leaded. However I had great difficulty getting the filling station attendents to turn on the pump when I tried to fill my 1974 Jenson Healey. They had oviously been told only to sell it to “new” cars. The JH had a 2 litre 16V twin cam Lotus 907 engine. This had been designed from scratch to run on unleaded and meet Californian emissions regulations. I finally got through to the attendents at the local BP.

I’ve also had a couple of cars with more modern high performance engines and the difference between running on standard and “premium” fuel is noticable. On one it needed a couple of tanks of fuel or a “learned parameters” reset on the ECU to see full effect. Driven normally the fuel comsumption was better but not enough to offset the cost.

Even a Fiat Multijet direect injection diesel ran better on premium (higher cetane) fuel. Also despite wisdom that putting even a liter of petrol into one of the modern diesls will wreck the pump(s) I actually ran it at motorway speeds for over 200 miles on at least 50% petrol with no lasting damage. A long story but classic 3 factors to make an incident, Unknown brand (black petrol handle), Dark wet windy night and SWMBO when in to pay.

Robert.

[Michael Gilligan]

On Michael Gilligan Said:

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

[…] However, a useful point emeges – Michael may have misread it the leaflet!  He said ‘<em style=”font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;”>The engine is explicitly stated to be unsuitable for fuels with more than 5% Methanol content …‘     Thing is E5 and E10 contain Ethanol, not Methanol, so the engine might be OK.

No, Dave … Michael did not misread the leaflet

Pleased to hear it!

I quoted the full text from the Drivers Handbook, which covers all three options, specifically in the hope of avoiding this confusion.

In which case, why is the topic entitled ‘E5 Petrol [please discuss]’?  And what are the three options – I only see two?

The fact that the UK fuel presently uses Ethanol does not guarantee that it always will.

True, but it doesn’t alter the price of fish; your leaflet doesn’t cover what happens if government or the market switch to petrol other than E5 or E10.  My guess is they’re more likely to go for E25 than a Methanol blend, but no sign of that at the moment.

 

Sorry but ”the engine might be OK” is not a useful comment.

I suggest it is.   Not possible from the information presented to confirm positively that this car definitely runs without problems on E10.

1. May not matter, but the clip starts with an unresolved ‘if’.  Does the car have a RON95 label or not?
2. There’s a second ‘if’ in the Gasoline/Ethanol blends advice.  ‘Blends of this type may be used in your vehicle if they are no more than 10% ethanol.’  In other words, low risk burning E5, but E10 is right on the limit.

Looking good, unless point 2 is a worry,  but more research needed.

MichaelG.

A few posters comment they’ve been running old bangers on E10 without problems.   Sorry but their input is low-value.   An E5 only car doesn’t fall apart the moment someone gives it a whiff of of E10!  It might pink, though most EMUs will hide that.  The big hidden problem is that any seal or pipework that’s not alcohol resistant will start rotting from the inside out, probably slowly.  The owner is blissfully unaware until he spots a fault like a pool of petrol under the car.   He might never realise – if 25% of vehicles run on E10 fail prematurely, the problem is real, even though 75% of owners got away with it.  In general personal experience of this kind of problem isn’t much cop: you need a sample size of at least 1000, and it mustn’t be self-selecting.

Dave

[Michael Gilligan]

On 17 August 2024 at 13:34 Michael Gilligan Said:

I am considering purchase of another vehicle

[it’s a complicated story, and irrelevant to the question … so can we please keep this simple]

A request doomed to failure ^^^
MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

For Dave’s benefit, I have ringed three options and highlighted one dire warning

.

.

AND … based on my own previous experience, E5 would be my preferred option.

I said it was complicated

MichaelG.

[peak4]

On peak4 Said:

Unless I’ve missed it somewhere above, I think there is a light misunderstanding of the use of Ein E5 & E10 fuels (EN228).

Originally it was intended just to refer to Ethanol, but has now expanded to the Environmentally friendly additives, which includes Methanol, up to 3% in EU standards for automotive fuel, also IPA and others, though it may vary from area to area.

[…]

MANY THANKS, Bill … that’s the sort of input I was hoping-for !

But what hope have we if “they” are adjusting the meaning of ‘E’

Testing some fuel, as described by Robert, might be an interesting exercise.

MichaelG.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

https://aspenfuel.co.uk/

… is suggested by some for running small engines, mowers and the like. I’d guess it’d be pricey for a car and might need additives?

pgk

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks for the thought, pgk

… but Aspen would be very expensive to use in a car.

MichaelG.

.

P.S. __ for everyone: I have just located a 2014 model, in broadly similar condition

This may be a better proposition than the 2011, fuel-compatibility-wise.

[Bob WorsleyParticipant @bobworsley31976]

I used to have a 3.9l Range Rover, 60’s design V8, and won’t run on E10. I used to buy the ESSO Synergy Supreme +99 petrol whic doesn’t have any ethanol in it. It was astonishing that a usual 270 mile fill up distance suddenly increased to 350 miles, no other changes. This must be due to the fuel wasted boiling the water out of the petrol, green design?

Ethanol absorbs water, needed some diesel and the jerrycan started weeping after a fill up, as a result of the rusting from ethanol? Not sure, can’t prove it.

Was an interesting article in Practical Boat Owner about the problems of ethanol in a lightly used situation, the boat would be laid up all winter and diesel tank rusted through. This is similar to a backup genset, only use it once every 5 years or so, will it run? Diesel without ethanol will last for decades, a genset will start and run no problems. Also ethanol promotes growth of black sludge in the tank and lines.

With ethanol in both petrol and diesel how do you now keep a backup genset? Apparently heating oil No2 is essentially identical to red diesel, but it doesn’t have an equal amount of filtering so needs looking at, also adding a 120:1 2 stroke oil will also help.

 

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

There are three issues with ethanol.

First one is degradation of various plastics and tendency to corrode some of the alloys used for carburettor bodies and other precision cast fuel side components.

Second one is the way it draws in atmospheric water exacerbating the corrosion and generally gunking up issues. Not good for metal fuel tanks either.

Third one, which tends to be overlooked in most discussions, is that it upsets the adaptive fuel settings on modern EFI systems. Combustion temperature changes, knock level changes, lower calorific value means you need more fuel for any given power output and reduced lubricity increases rate of injector system wear. But on the plus side the ethanol does help keep the injectors cleaner. Modern EFI systems tend to run the engine right up to the edge to increase fuel efficiency and reduce pollution so the EFI and sensors need to be right on the ball to keep things working well. Fortunately everything sufficiently modern for such things to be an issue will have been developed on E10 so all should be well.

Old style motors like the soft tuned V8 in my Range Rover P38 generally take the fuel and tuning issues in their stride. In my case any issues with E10 induced fuel variation are far less than those the old V8 was designed and developed to cope with. But it was noticeable that when my Mass AirFlow sensor decided that 23 years old was retirement time the difference between E5 and E10 was quite noticeable on the rare occasions that I booted it. Failing MAF meant it really didn’t want to rev or surge on kick-down but on E5 it would (reluctantly) go to around 4,500 rpm whilst on E10 was restricted to around 4,000 rpm. In all normal use 3,000 is plenty which is why I didn’t notice the MAF issue for a year or three. With the new MAF the big red beast is now ridiculously spritely for a two ton car with permanent 4 wheel drive and the aerodynamics of a small house.

My guess is that vehicles with modernised or reworked engines in the year 2000 to 2015 region are most likely to have EFI and fuel related issues with E10. Which will probably only show up if you boot it. Michaels Vitara falls into that category. But I suspect Michael won’t boot it so the issue is moot. Possibly occasionally revisiting the old time shot of REDex, or whatever the up to date equivalent is, in the tank might be prudent.

My rotary engined Norton Commander running on SU carbs is totally indifferent to the E5 or E10 issue. But I tend to prefer E5 to help reduce any potential fuel tank corrosion issues. Hafta remember to hit the reserve switch occasionally though to ensure that water can’t build up in the left hand side of the fuel tank.

My Yamaha GTS with its fuel injected, detuned and re-worked FZR engine is distinctly not happy at low rpm on E10. Not greatly enamoured of E5 either. But that has a pressure sensing EFI system without a MAF so the self tuning capability is inevitably less. Tempted to try the cut and extra hole in the air-box tuning modification that releases about 5 more top end ponies to see if that helps at low end too.

Clive

 

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

With reference to Bobs worries over fuels for gen-sets you can buy (expensive) small bottles of fuel stabiliser that is supposed to prevent ethanol and similar fuel aging problems.

Muggins didn’t bother to use it over the last for years or so and now my Honda EX5500 super quiet generator laid back its ears and refused to start on the last 3 monthly test run (rather overdue) so now its spanner time.  Looks like not using the jollop was a false economy! I’d wrongly thought that shutting off the fuel and running until the carburettor was empty was sufficient precaution.

The totally daft thing about all this is that pro-rata there is considerably more carbon in ethanol than there is in petrol so it’s actually worse from the CO2 issue. But thats getting political.

Clive

[VicParticipant @vic]

This video is two years old now but still interesting.

https://youtu.be/5Q1y1H85nr4?si=8iFEa8uRMZDKJynK

 

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

The small amount of Methanol (3%) allowed in both E5 and E10 fuel is mainly to denature the ethanol i.e. stop people extracting the ethanol for consumption.Note E5 is no better in respect of Methanol.

Any fuel meeting EN228 up to 2012 +A1 2017 is good for even the 2011 car.

The simple water test I mentioned detects all alcohols. Given the 3% limit on Methanol in fuel E10 fuel meeting EN227 (2008 or later) should show less than 153% on the test. E5 should less than 10% on the test.
Values higher than this are possible and may not be a problelem because up to 15% of IPA is allowed.
Some light aircraft engines rated to run on MOGAS require an alcohol test on every batch of fuel.
The values are all maximums and few fuels on retail sale will come close to the allowed values.

Robert.

[Michael Gilligan]

On 17 August 2024 at 13:34 Michael Gilligan Said:

… I will continue to use E5 ‘super unleaded’ just as I currently do.

The question is: … How long will this continue to be available, and at what cost ?

 

Nobody on an internet forum can predict the future actions of oil companies or governments.

The official UK government statement is that E5 “will remain available”, which could mean anything in future years.  https://www.gov.uk/guidance/e10-petrol-explained

Personally, I would avoid an almost 15-year-old “verging upon rare model” with special fuel needs like the plague. Too hard to get parts and service for anything over 10 years old these days, unless you can do the work yourself and can source aftermarket parts, which are a quagmire of highly variable quality products.

 

[JAParticipant @ja]

Has anyone looked at what the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs has said on this matter?

They were very pro-active when unleaded petrol was introduced with the lobbying of the EU and investigating valve seat recession.

I found the Highlands Fuel petrol specification very interesting in as much as fuel companies do not usually issue such things. All they say is that the fuel meets the required specification. When I was at work the MOD sampled the aviation fuel it bought and issued a yearly report. I suspect that Highland Fuel spec is identical to the required spec.

JA

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Just another digression [we’ve had a few already]:

Here’s an easy guide to deciphering the VIN

https://uaw.org/standing-committees/union-label/how-to-read-your-vin/

MichaelG.

[Hopper]

On Hopper Said:

Nobody on an internet forum can predict the future actions of oil companies or governments. […] Personally, I would avoid an almost 15-year-old “verging upon rare model” with special fuel needs like the plague.

Fair comments, Hopper … but it’s the vehicle that best suits my present requirements

I already have  2004 version of the GV [affectionately known as the Skip] which is still going strong, and anything from 2015 onwards has lost the ruggedness.

MichaelG.

.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Vitara

 

[Bob Worsley]

On Bob Worsley Said:

I used to have a 3.9l Range Rover, 60’s design V8, and won’t run on E10. I used to buy the ESSO Synergy Supreme +99 petrol whic doesn’t have any ethanol in it. It was astonishing that a usual 270 mile fill up distance suddenly increased to 350 miles, no other changes. This must be due to the fuel wasted boiling the water out of the petrol, green design?

Ethanol absorbs water, needed some diesel and the jerrycan started weeping after a fill up, as a result of the rusting from ethanol? Not sure, can’t prove it.

Was an interesting article in Practical Boat Owner about the problems of ethanol in a lightly used situation, the boat would be laid up all winter and diesel tank rusted through. This is similar to a backup genset, only use it once every 5 years or so, will it run? Diesel without ethanol will last for decades, a genset will start and run no problems. Also ethanol promotes growth of black sludge in the tank and lines.

With ethanol in both petrol and diesel how do you now keep a backup genset? Apparently heating oil No2 is essentially identical to red diesel, but it doesn’t have an equal amount of filtering so needs looking at, also adding a 120:1 2 stroke oil will also help.

 

It might be worth investigating treatments such as Star Tron for long term layups or gen sets
Note that it seems to come in different concentrations when doing your price check comparisons
http://www.starbrite.com/item/star-tron-gasoline-additive

Bill

[JA]

On JA Said:

Has anyone looked at what the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs has said on this matter?

They were very pro-active when unleaded petrol was introduced with the lobbying of the EU and investigating valve seat recession.

…

JA

https://fbhvc.co.uk/fuels

Tells you all you need to know for older vehicles, i.e. considerably older than that which Michael has in mind (which I’d regard as “almost new”); some of the advice, such as changing all fuel hoses, gaskets, etc., is quite easy for a 30+ year old vehicle, maybe not so much so for a 15 year old.

FWIW my 1969 Morris Minor works OK on E10, though the idle tends to be a bit lumpy, and the fuel consumption is probably a bit higher than it would be on straight petrol. <edited to add> I do you use a fuel additive, which works out as a very minor expense. Wynn’s, I think.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

A valuable link, Andy

Thank you

MichaelG.

[Michael Gilligan]

On Michael Gilligan Said:

Just another digression [we’ve had a few already]:

Here’s an easy guide to deciphering the VIN

https://uaw.org/standing-committees/union-label/how-to-read-your-vin/

MichaelG.

Car companies are allowed to put the head office location rather than the actual country of manufacture on the VIN plate. Someone I know has a “German” car according to the VIN plate, but it’s never been built there. They are made in Brazil, China and Hungary.
The BMW iX3 is built in China and sold in Europe, I wonder what the VIN plate says though?

Many if not most manufacturers appear to put the real location on the VIN plate but German car makers are a notable exception.

 

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

A quick update on the VIN issue …

The link I provided earlier is very basic information, and of no real value to most of us … This Wikipedia page, however, is probably the road to madness:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_identification_number

MichaelG.

[Author]

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