E5 Petrol [please discuss]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I am considering purchase of another vehicle

[it’s a complicated story, and irrelevant to the question … so can we please keep this simple]

The engine is explicitly stated to be unsuitable for fuels with more than 5% Methanol content … so in the present market I will continue to use E5 ‘super unleaded’ just as I currently do.

The question is: … How long will this continue to be available, and at what cost ?

Grateful for any thoughts, technical and/or financial

Note: Making this into a Political discussion would be futile, so let’s not go there.

 

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

There was mention in a recent German motorcycle magazine that E5 was being phased out in Germany. I didn’t translate (via phone app) the article to read it in more depth (doesn’t affect the vehicles I use in Germany – all will run on E10), but could do so if that were of interest ?

I do use E5 in the UK in a couple of recent motorcycles on the recommendation of the supplying dealer – the bikes are E10 compatible, but the dealer said that in their experience these bikes run better on E5. E5 is, however, appreciably more expensive than E10 (currently £1.37 for E10 locally at Asda, but £1.53 for last week’s fill-up of E5), though not so much of an issue on bikes currently returning circa. 100 mpg & limited use. My wife has an older bike (’86 BMW R65LS) that runs OK-ish on E10 but better on E5 – this bike pre-dates ethanol adulteration of petrol & the only issue I have had with the ethanol fuels is shorter life of rubber fuel hoses.

How long will E5 be available here ? Who knows. Maybe the Federation of Historic Vehicle Clubs may have a better idea ?

Nigel B.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Many thanks for that, Nigel

… definitely food for thought

MichaelG.

[Nick HughesParticipant @nickhughes97026]

In the UK, E5 and E10 contain 5% and 10% ETHANOL respectively,  therefore according to the literature in your second posting, you can use E10 providing the RON rating is 95 or higher.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Hard to put a timing on it!

The tide is running against E5 because government policy moved to replace it with E10 3 years ago.  (In doing so they were late compared with the rest of the world.)  Plus there are other strong forces pushing the world away from petrol,

E10 is supposed to be cheaper than E5 so expect tax attacks intended to discourage people buying it in future. Politics.

Commercially, likely as sales drop that E5 pumps will disappear from forecourts, making buying it ever more difficult in the future.   I guess this will be done station by station – probably when their tanks are replaced (they last 10 to 20years), earlier if the garage decides there’s no profit in E5.

Lack of profit from E5 across the board might accelerate the decline faster than expected.  Cars made after 2011 should all run on E10, potentially making E5 a specialist fuel sold only to fuel old-cars, who are a minority.   I believe the average life of a UK car is about 15 years,  meaning that half the cars on the road in 2011 will have been replaced by 2026.   Most motorists don’t buy E5.

The rise, or not, or electric adds another dimension.  If the country’s economy is weak and electric cars stay expensive, then many car owners will keep their old-bangers going for longer, even if the cost of E5 is painful.   This will tend to keep the market for E5 healthy for longer.  On the other hand, the cost of electric cars is dropping, with more to come, and the economy is showing green-shoots at the moment.  Thus the switch to electric and the end of garage forecourts could come sooner rather than later.

All in all I wouldn’t buy a car that can’t run on E10 now.   I think in the 5 to 15 year timescale, finding E5 is going to get difficult, at least for ordinary motoring.  However, 5 to 15 years out of a car might be enough to meet the needs of many older drivers : the average age we stop driving in the UK is 82.

Dave

[Nick Hughes]

On Nick Hughes Said:

In the UK, E5 and E10 contain 5% and 10% ETHANOL respectively,  therefore according to the literature in your second posting, you can use E10 providing the RON rating is 95 or higher.

The RON rating isn’t the only factor.  More worrying is that the rubber and plastics used in fuel systems before 2011 are attacked by the stronger ethanol mix.   E10 causes them to age prematurely, because they weren’t designed for it.

Dave

[Nick HughesParticipant @nickhughes97026]

SOD, If the OP’s second posting is indeed from the new vehicles literature, then your statement/posting is irrelevant, as if you read it, it states that ethanol mixes of no more than 10% can be used!

[Nick Hughes]

On Nick Hughes Said:

SOD, If the OP’s second posting is indeed from the new vehicles literature, then your statement/posting is irrelevant, as if you read it, it states that ethanol mixes of no more than 10% can be used!

An assumption Nick, especially when readers of your post hasn’t read Michael’s leaflet!  What I said is accurate and complete – it’s not just about RON!

However, a useful point emeges – Michael may have misread it the leaflet!  He said ‘The engine is explicitly stated to be unsuitable for fuels with more than 5% Methanol content …‘     Thing is E5 and E10 contain Ethanol, not Methanol, so the engine might be OK.

Dave

 

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

My car states ( Skoda Octavia 2017) on the filler cap to only use E5, however when I bought it I asked a good friend who is an experienced mechanic and works for a VAG/Skoda main dealer and he stated E10 would do no harm and most get run on it, and also about Ethanol and Methanol, so i’ve used that for the last 30.000 miles and nothing has melted or blown up. Not recommending or wishing to cause an argument, just this is what I’ve done with no apparent ill effects.

Dave (cheapskate!)

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

As Nick has stated E5 or E10 fuel contains up to 5% or 10% Ethanol hence the E so not a problem.
Actual alcohol content can be easily determined using a graduated measure and mixing the fuel with some water. The alcohol disolves in the water increasing it’s volume and decreaing the “petrol” volume. https://www.delphiautoparts.com/resource-center/article/how-to-test-the-alcohol-content-of-gasoline

Robert.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Michael, is it new or secondhand?

I was interested to see that the Gov.uk site that tells you if your car can run on E10 only lists current production models for Suzuki. Yet my Suburu which I run on E5 for more for the octane says that any of their cars since 1991 will be OK on E10.

I have run my Imprezzas on Super since 1997 and although it costs more it is not so bad given the limited miles that I do which is just as well as I may only get 20mpg if enjoying myself.

[JAParticipant @ja]

How old is the car you are buying? From the picture of the script quite old from the suggestion that one can revert back to unleaded non-ethanol petrol. I have not seen any of that for some years and most of the local filling stations only sell diesel and E10.

Many modern petrol engines using turbochargers are happy with a range of octane ratings. My car engine will cope with E10/RON95 or better and return a power depending on the octane rating (and the driver). According to the manufacture it can produce 120PS and does, indicated on the driver’s screen, return better than 50mpg. This is a three cylinder 1 litre engine. Engines have changed considerably over the last 20 years.

JA (who should be machining axle boxes)

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

No doubt someone is trying to work out how to get the ethanol out of E10 so you finish up with proper petrol and very strong booze.

Many moons ago we got an enquiry whether our gas turbines would run on cane alcohol, which is I think pretty strong ethanol. It was surprisingly easy to get the necessary paperwork to have a bonded store, and the alcohol itself was stupidly cheap. And yes, the turbine ran fine. We didn’t drink the spirit, I think it had been adulterated with some noxious chemical.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Anyone remember Cleveland Discoll, I think that had ethanol in it, but probably misremembered

[VicParticipant @vic]

I’ve been running my car on E5 for quite some time but I saw something recently that said it’s a waste of time if you can run E10 (I can) in your car. I need to top up soon so I was planning on filling up with E10 unless someone can persuade me otherwise?

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Er!!  Is Methanol used in petrol, the net suggests that this is not the case and that it is Ethanol which is used.

[JAParticipant @ja]

Duncan

Almost all ethanol is adulterated with something. It is very difficult to remove the small amount of water to get 100% ethanol. You have to use concentrated sulphuric acid.

Mind you, some of the adulterants produce very nice drinks, pass the gin and tonic please.

JA

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

I run an 85 year old motorcycle on E5 and E10 with a little valve master and a drop of R and it seems ok (so far).

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

For land use the issue with Ethanol and Methanol in fuel is not combustion it is seals and other elastomers / plastics in the system. A problem with seldom used vehicles is their absorbsion of moisture from the air which can then cause corrosion.
There has been a lot of work on this for aircraft use and even then there have been surprises. Amateur built aircraft that were running fine on MOGAS (car fuel) but had to go back to AVGAS (100 octane leaded) because of the Ethanol content in modern MOGAS, suffered from fuel tank degradation and blocked fuel lines.

Robert.

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

[…] However, a useful point emeges – Michael may have misread it the leaflet!  He said ‘<em style=”font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;”>The engine is explicitly stated to be unsuitable for fuels with more than 5% Methanol content …‘     Thing is E5 and E10 contain Ethanol, not Methanol, so the engine might be OK.

No, Dave … Michael did not misread the leaflet

I quoted the full text from the Drivers Handbook, which covers all three options, specifically in the hope of avoiding this confusion.

The fact that the UK fuel presently uses Ethanol does not guarantee that it always will.

 

Sorry but ”the engine might be OK” is not a useful comment.

MichaelG.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

Michael, is it new or secondhand?

I was interested to see that […]

That’s the crunch, Jason

It’s a 2011 model short wheelbase 2.4litre Suzuki Vitara, [one owner] and therefore verging upon ‘rare’

On paper it looks way overpriced … but the condition and mileage make it very interesting and I’m trying to get my head around the various risks.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: … and before anyone asks why I would want one … they are rather capable:

https://youtu.be/Zo-eFshzvMw?feature=shared

[Speedy Builder5]

On Speedy Builder5 Said:

[…] the net suggests that this is <strong style=”font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;”>not the case and […]

I would rather trust SUZUKI than “the net”

MichaelG.

[Vic]

On Vic Said:

I’ve been running my car on E5 for quite some time but I saw something recently that said it’s a waste of time if you can run E10 (I can) in your car. I need to top up soon so I was planning on filling up with E10 unless someone can persuade me otherwise?

Let me try to persuade you otherwise, Vic

[and I think Jason will support my findings]

The BMW 2.5 engine is capable of running without “pinking”on most fuel, because the VVT is very sophisticated… BUT … the general difference in performance is immediately obvious to the driver.

Note also the closing paragraph that I quoted from SUZUKI

… By all means try it for yourself.

MichaelG.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

I run my old 1992 hayter 4 stroke Briggs and stratton powered mower on E5 petrol. Not sure it will be ok on this E10 stuff…

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