Duplicate Articles?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Just to say, don't be afraid to mention EiM – it does us good to have a third title in the market to keep us on our toes, although I'm sure our magazines have the edge

There's no bad blood and no rules against mentioning EiM or discussing articles in it here.

Neil

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Larry,

I agree 100% with you. And no, don't crawl away and hide, just be proud that you, and me, are learning to use our brain and hands in co-ordination together.

People ask me what I do with my machinery. my answer is always: "Self-education by experimentation, and if I happen to find something that I can use those skills on, then that's even better".

In respect of magazines, I used to take ME, then added MEW when it first started, then dropped ME as it did nothing for me. I've looked occasionally at EIM, but it has never struck me as being worth having. MEW rules, OK!

Peter G. Shaw

[mike TParticipant @miket56243]

Strange?

EiM are said to be in decline, yet they run the majority of the remaining model engineering exhibitions.

ME and MEW claim to be doing well but seem to have given up on the once presdigious MEX

Edited By mike T on 22/11/2017 21:32:13

Edited By mike T on 22/11/2017 21:32:33

[Anonymous]

I think it is splitting hairs to say the series in ME and MEW are not duplicates. I didn't say they were, but obviously they are, or should be, covering the same ground. There may only be an overlap of 20%, but darn it, we're the 20% and we demand to be heard.

Still this thread has answered one question. I was more than surprised to see the article on the screwcutting clutch in MEW. When I visited the author a few years back (we'd been discussing home made spark plugs over a period of a few months) it was made clear that the ME/MEW stable was persona non grata. I was told to look at EIM for publishing my articles. I did look at their T&Cs, but wasn't overwhelmed. I have a recollection of getting a free copy of EIM a good few years back at the Midlands model exhibition. It was not a bad magazine, but it didn't wow me enough to subscribe. I haven't seen a copy since, so I'm not in a position to judge it's current state.

It's rather sad that some people only seem to be interested in relearning what is already known. Sure old school techniques are still useful, and even I've been known to mark out and hand file and drill parts. But there are also new techniques coming along that change the way things are done, or create completely new ways. I like learning and using them too. It's what shapes the world. When building my traction engines I think about what the original workers would have thought if confronted with some of the modern techniques. I expect some would have embraced them, and some would have dismissed them. And those that dismissed them would have promptly gone out of business.

As for the original question about which, if any, magazine to cancel all I will say is just be careful that readers other than beginners aren't forgotten.

Andrew

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by mike T on 22/11/2017 21:30:28:

Strange?

EiM are said to be in decline, yet they run the majority of the remaining model engineering exhibitions.

ME and MEW claim to be doing well but seem to have given up on the once presdigious MEX

Edited By mike T on 22/11/2017 21:32:13

Edited By mike T on 22/11/2017 21:32:33

Meridienne, who specialise in many different modelling related exhibitions sold EiM to Warner's Group a year or more ago.

Running exhibitions and publishing require very different approaches, but that said we haven't given up on MEX!

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 22/11/2017 21:39:40:

As for the original question about which, if any, magazine to cancel all I will say is just be careful that readers other than beginners aren't forgotten.

No greater fool than the politician who chooses their policy according to the loudest voice, and the same goes for editors who set their editorial policy the same way. Don't begrudge space for others' ineterests if you want space for your own!

But how many hobby magazines have this much variety from technical to basic in one issue:

9 SHAPING UP

Bill Morris kicks of a short series on shapers with a bit of history and a guide to how they work.

13 SIMPLE CUTTERS FOR CLOCK PINIONS AND WHEELS

A straightforward explanation and method for making you own clock gears from Ted Knight.

9 A GUIDE TO MAKING SPUR GEARS WITH THE JACOBS HOBBER

Christopher Robinson continues his beginner’s guide to using a Jacobs Gear Hobbing Machine.

22 2017 METAL OF THE YEAR

And the winner is… announced by Jacques Maurel.

27 JOHN STEVENSON

We mark the passing of one of most familiar faces at the engineering shows.

28 LATHEWORK FOR BEGINNERS

This month Neil Wyatt cuts some metal, looking at basic turning.

34 3D PRINTING FOR THE WORKSHOP

Another interesting application of 3D printing from Darren Conway.

38 INDEX FOR ISSUES 249 TO 260

The latest index compiled by Barry Chamberlain.

42 THE 2017 CHRISTMAS CHALLENGE

The results of our recent competition.

44 POLISHING ON THE LATHE

Chris Gabel looks at the advantages of synthetic abrasives.

47 A SCREWCUTTING CLUTCH FOR THE MYFORD ML7

Graham Meek continues his description of this invaluable accessory.

46 ENHANCEMENTS TO THE SIEG SUPER X1L

Mike Cox and his power feed for the X1L.

60 SILVER SOLDERING

Keith Hale offers some advice to the novice in silver soldering.

65 AN IMPROVEMENT TO A FILING REST

No rest for the wicked – Peter Shaw had to update his 2014 device..

Regulars

3 ON THE EDITOR’S BENCH

Have your workshop projects stalled?

57 ON THE WIRE

More news from the world of hobby engineering

59 READERS’ TIPS

This month, tiny collets for tiny studs.

63 SCRIBE A LINE

Do you have a Merlin engine in your workshop?

67 READERS’ CLASSIFIEDS

Another pageful of great deals!

Two mentions of beginner and one of novice, but I'd argue that printing the FIRST proper guide to using a Jacobs Hobber is of far wider interest than just beginners and that Keith Hale's silver soldering advice will be useful to many as well.

Neil.P.S. I'm worried now that if I publish one of your articles you'll cancel your sub on the grounds you've read it already…

[mike TParticipant @miket56243]

Running exhibitions and publishing require very different approaches, but that said we haven't given up on MEX!

Neil, We have only had one MEX in the last three years. Are there any plans for another?

Mike

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 22/11/2017 21:39:40:

It's rather sad that some people only seem to be interested in relearning what is already known. Sure old school techniques are still useful, and even I've been known to mark out and hand file and drill parts. But there are also new techniques coming along that change the way things are done

A bit early to say but I think this is where the two series will differ, I know that Neil's will be very much based on the machines and methods that are currently available. From the first article I get the impression that Graham's will be a lot more "old school"

J

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Hang on a bit Andrew. Don't forget that there are some people, me for one, who do not know the "already known". Are we then to ignore all that? Plus, some of the "already known" is historical and as I get older, I find myself realising that some history is actually of interest to me.

I think there is a lot to be said for learning, and yes even practicing, the basics. It's alright using CNC, but what happens when something goes wrong? Is it the programming? Or could it be that the basic theory/knowledge was lacking? At least if you have done the "already known" then that to me at least is another weapon in the armoury of sorting out what has gone wrong.

There is another consideration. I do not have the quantity or quality of equipment that you appear to have at your disposal. And I certainly can't afford it. So therefore I have to adopt old methods of working.

Furthermore, I have no interest in programming – I have done some many years ago, so I know I can do it, and that's the end of it, no further interest. On the contrary, I am attempting to master my lathe and milling machine, and that's where the interest lies – learning how to get round the myriad problems that develop.

Cheers,

Peter G. Shaw

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/11/2017 21:57:13:

But how many hobby magazines have this much variety from technical to basic in one issue:

42 THE 2017 CHRISTMAS CHALLENGE

The results of our recent competition.

The one we are all waiting for!

When is the paper MEW 262 on the bookshelves Neil?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by David Standing 1 on 23/11/2017 10:20:25:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/11/2017 21:57:13:

But how many hobby magazines have this much variety from technical to basic in one issue:

42 THE 2017 CHRISTMAS CHALLENGE

The results of our recent competition.

The one we are all waiting for!

When is the paper MEW 262 on the bookshelves Neil?

Next week, subs copies about Tuesday, the electronic one is ready and will be available in a few days.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Andrew

To answer the original question, for you, either ditch ME or half ditch it by going digital only.

Reasons.

You have a major project on with the 2 traction engines so long project series are not going to be of direct interest.

If you want an opinion or some information you didn't know you can ask on the forum an example being your governer design.

You get much of the chit chat, here on the forum so it feels like you are involved.

Everything gets a little tedious after a while.

A change is as good as a rest so why not spend the money on really old back issues for a while.

Well you did ask.

Personally I would say I look forwards to MEW more than ME at the moment. If I had more time on my hands I would probably enjoy wading through my accumulated back issues of ME and enjoy them more than I do at the minute. I shall probably stop taking at least the paper version of ME at some stage having built up enough to keep me going in old age (sometime in the future yet, hopefully) and I am running out of space to keep them all.

best regards Martin

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

To Peter Shaw,I say,"Welcome to the club",since it seems we are both in the same boat !

I too spend hours with my machines and produce nothing at the end of it,but so what?,for me the interest is in the doing,not in the end product. To be able to say "I know how to do that operation now" is an end in itself. Simple things like that keep me happy [let the others snigger away,who cares? ] From time to time I actually manage to repair something,using my new found skills,this I regard as a bonus.

It,s nice to read about all these wonderful things others can do,good luck to them,perhaps if I live long enough,I might get there too,but in the meantime my aim is just to enjoy pottering around,and who knows,some day I might even make something !!!!!

[Anonymous]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/11/2017 21:57:13:

Neil.P.S. I'm worried now that if I publish one of your articles you'll cancel your sub on the grounds you've read it already…

Actually I do read my own articles, to see what has been edited. As far as I'm aware you don't have any more of my articles in "stock", so there's no danger of me cancelling a subscription on the grounds mentioned.

We differ on what constitutes technical. I find myself being disappointed by good sounding articles, that then deal with the how, but not the why. Let's take a recent example, the articles on extending the capabilities of the Jacobs gear hobber. I don't have a gear hobber, and most likely never will, but I am interested in gears so I have read the articles. The article mentions a double enveloping worm. It's probably me being dumb but I don't understand how it was cut. But what really interests me is understanding the design, and that wasn't mentioned. If I can draw something I can probably make it, but not vice versa. In a similar vein, despite a lengthy discussion on this forum, I still don't really understand the tooth shape on a worm wheel. I've reached a bit of a dead end on searches, so I'm not sure where to look for further information.

I'm realising that I'm somewhat out of step with the model engineering world, so may be it's time to move on?

Andrew

PS: Forgot to mention that the articles by Jacques Maurel do try and explain the what and why, as well as the how, which I enjoy.

Edited By Andrew Johnston on 23/11/2017 12:13:23

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

As a writer and some-time editor of specialist magazines for more than 50 years, I find some of the discussion above most interesting. The fact is the economics of the publishing business now, compared with the 1960s and 70s, are far different. For instance, the specialist publication I worked on in the late 1960s and early 70s sold 170,000 copies weekly. Now it sells fewer than 26,000. All printed media is suffering in the same way, and losing out to on-line sources of information.

In general, magazines just can't afford to take the high risk of running exhibitions, and in many cases can't afford to take stands at exhibitions run by other folks. Neither can magazines afford to employ large editorial staffs – if fact, I wonder how much ME's apparently big staff were paid in years gone by. My guess would be not much.

Then we come to the business of apparently telling readers information they already know. It may be true in the case of long-term readers like the majority of contributors to this forum, but I can't believe it applies to the majority of ME and MEW readers. It has always been my belief that people take specialist magazines during the time when they are hungry for knowledge. In other words, when they are relatively new to a hobby. Research by my former employer (the EMAP group, at the time Britain's second-biggest magazine publisher) suggested that there was, in general and discounting the ever-loyal few, a five-year turn around in readership. To all of these new readers, the information that the few of us may find old and boring is, to them, new and fresh.

Of course, if ME and MEW would join the Audit Bureau of Circulations, we would all have a clearer picture. But that's another argument, isn't it Neil? I guess that, even if you know the sales figures, the suits upstairs insist you keep it a closely-guarded secret.

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

A Mike said,"What,s old hat to most members is brand new to new comers"

Too true !

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Mike on 23/11/2017 12:09:59:

I guess that, even if you know the sales figures, the suits upstairs insist you keep it a closely-guarded secret.

You cold find out by becoming an advertiser.

What I can say is that unlike most of the sector ME and MEW readership is effectively static, with a slow drift from print to digital and naturally some turnover. A few years ago an 'industry expert' told me we have some of (if not the) highest ratios of subscribers to casual readers in the UK magazine sector.

I hope that's good for the magazines and good for the hobby (hobbies) – some of the modelling sector titles saw a 30% decline in twelve months to mid 2017.

Neil

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Andrew,

It's not time to move on, just accept that in this world of Model Engineering (which is a misnomer if ever there was one) there people from all walks of life: some have lots of expertise, some have very little, some like making models, some like making full size articles, some such as Larry and me just like to tinker and learn how to get the best out of our machines. But we are all linked by a desire to do something other than sit in the armchair gawping at the box in the corner, doing something that will exercise our brains, and in this respect let me tell you a personal tale.

My maternal grandfather finished work at age 65, no hobbies and within 5 years was dead. But those last few years were marred by a distinct loss of memory, I suppose today we would say Altzeimers. He had to be told every little thing to do. Frankly, seeing that deterioration scared me, an 11 year old when he died. Today, I've exceeded his death by over four years, the medics say I show no sign of mental deterioration, ok physical yes. We are told that one way to stave of mental deterioration is to keep the brain active, so Model Engineering, Computing (well-sort of), choral singing (or perhaps not as the old ears are letting me down) and so on. Indeed, anything that takes my interest.

Unfortunately, or maybe not, my engineering knowledge comes from reading and then going out and having a go. But I do run into problems. Take for example my homemade countersink. It works, but it shows what I think are exclusions (not sure of the technical term) but when I put a photo of it on the website someone explained that I had well and truly overheated it. Now that is where book learning can only go so far, and its people like you with much more expertise who can assist folk like me who have never been shown how to do something, but who are willing to have a go, even if it goes wrong.

So please don't move on, keep sharing your expertise, we may not thankyou everytime, but we do appreciate it, and even if what you say does not immediately prove helpful, the chances are that at some time in the future I or someone else will think, "Hang on, I've seen this before somewhere. Now who was it…..?"

Larry,

It's nice to meet (?) someone who thinks like I do.

Peter G. Shaw

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

Good news indeed, Neil – and long may it continue. Buyers of postal subscriptions are always welcome – publishing houses get their money up front, and don't have to pay the newsagent's commission. I'm sorry to hear about that 30 per cent decline in the modelling sector. It indicates to me that youngsters are no longer getting pleasure out of creating something.

Peter: You and Larry have got it right. One aspect is that we don't necessarily have the right equipment for a job, so we have to improvise. This means that the thinking time is far longer than the actual machining time, and it's that kind of activity which keeps the dreaded Alzheimer's at bay. It certainly helped me recover from a stroke five years ago. I'm 76, and the flesh may be weak but the brain still works – at least that's how I see it. Others may beg to differ!

Edited By Mike on 23/11/2017 15:27:47

[richard 2Participant @richard2]

I agree with Larry.

After breakfast I do an hour's practice on a large 3-manual digital organ – reading the music uses the brain and the manuals and pedals keep the fingers, wrists, ankles and knees going.

I do not play as well as I did twenty years ago but although I'm 85 I get a lot of pleasure out of the organ and then into the workshop to the lathe and mill.

So, according to my GP I'm still plenty mobile and mental arithmetic is still a doddle.

I have given up driving a car. The sheer selfishness of so many other drivers left me appalled.

So keep up the good work in the "man-cave" and take no notice of what other people say – it's good for you.

Many thanks to all you good people who have helped me on this excellent forum.

richard 2.

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

Peter,

That was a sad way for your Dad to go,but I,ve seen it time and time again,and often for the same reason, no outside interests . Some of the men I worked with,younger than I am,are now dead,the only thing they knew was the job,the job! nothing else. No way do I intend to go that road and as long as this forum exists and there are others out there willing to put up with us I say keep going until your motor burns out,or you blow the last fuse !

PS Even if I can make nothing else, I do make lovely swarf !!

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Mike,

That's exactly what I'm doing at the moment. No.2 grandson came up with a problem – I start thinking about how to do it, and am now making a modification to my fixed steady, you know the sort of thing, sort of now what comes next, ah, I need to do this; No I don't , must do that first. And so on.

Richard2,

Interesting comment about the organ. I've been choral singing for something like 55 years and although I can find my way around the keyboard with one finger – any finger, on either hand – two fingers simultaneously defeats me, unless I take it extremely slowly. In respect of singing, 12 years ago I developed Menieres and effectively lost most of the hearing in one ear but as long as the other ear worked, I was happy – I was at least still upright! But then last Easter my other ear started to play up – loss of bass response – which forced retirement as I couldn't hear properly. Since then I've been to the NHS audiologist and been given two new hearing aids – one fixed to, I think, augment the bass loss, and the other really cranked up for the almost non-existant ear. I'm told it takes the brain about 3 months to get used to them and that will be up mid-Jan. The domestic authority is pressurising me to go back to one of the choirs if I can (she's fed up with me hanging around the house – can't blame her) so I might just do that. It'll depend on how it sounds if I do get back.

I haven't given up driving – I actually enjoy driving in the present car. But what I have done is to refuse to go back to my birth town after the last chaotic episode. Trouble is, living in a rural district with reasonable roads, and then going back to West Yorkshire with its bad roads, and all the traffic restrictions etc, and it's no thank you, I don't need to so I'm not.

Larry,

There was an interesting facet to Grandad's problems. Apparently he was scared of hospitals and generally refused to go anywhere near them. My sister, who never knew him thinks it was because his father died in a mental hospital. Anyway, he had, from memory some sort of urinary problem but because of his memory failings, didn't know where he was going so there was some sort of advantage to it. Trouble was, that was where he died.

Peter G. Shaw

[IanTParticipant @iant]

As someone who has been gifted with the honorific of "The Old F**t" (by his eldest son) – I'm probably sufficiently qualified to say that this thread has wandered far enough off course now to be put out of its misery…and allowed (like any old soldier) to quietly fade away.

But before it does – "Engineering In Miniature" – There I said it out loud Neil !!

IanT

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

Some body mentioned about the way threads can wander. I seem to remember a thread some time ago,dont remember what it started out as,but they ended up talking about sheep ! Does anyone else recall this one ?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I certainly see creative hobbies as an investment in mental health long-term (and short-term sanity some times!)

I'm also trying to walk more although hitting 10,000 steps a day can be a challenge standing around in the workshop does help rack them up

I think there are many creative youngsters, many of them use other 'maker' oriented approaches to gathering and sharing information. Several younger faces and a lady driving engines in the latest ME so all is not lost!

Neil

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