Drummond B type refurbishment

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

The refurbishment of a Drummond Bros. B type lathe

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Ladies and Gents,

I spent the weekend collecting and transporting a Drummond Bros. B type lathe from my Uncle's place in Yorkshire to my home in the Highlands.

My intention is to restore this bonny little lathe to it's former glory. I have to say though that it has been some considerable time since it saw any sort of glory at all.

I have done a lot of reading courtesy of Tony's excellent site, lathes.co.uk. I remember when my Uncle bought the machine from a friend in about 1987, and we always wondered about it. Looking at Tony's site it was obviously a B type, sporting the stiffening loop at the top of the headstock casting, designed to prevent chatter.

The history of the lathe since it has been in my family is as follows. My Uncle is a model railway enthusiast (but that doesn't make him a bad person) and he bought the machine from a friend in his local MR club. The friend had rescued the machine from a landfill site! The lathe was mounted on it's original stand but lacked any of the treadle gear. It did have a large single phase motor attached by way of an extremely beefy bracket that looks original.

My Uncle never used the machine and it has languished in the back of his workshop for nearly 30 years. I've got to say that those 30 years were likely kinder than the previous 70, since all the dirt on the machine would have come from then. This got me thinking about the passage of time and the journeys that artefacts make. My Uncle's intention had been to weigh the machine in for scrap. For my own part I could not in all conscience allow a 100 year old piece of British manufacturing heritage to go in the crusher.

I include some photographs of the machine in my workshop, straight out the back of the van.

The first shows an overview of the machine, parts of the stand can be seen. The large BSF/Whit spanners you can see belonged to my Grandfather. I picked them up at the same time as the lathe. As can be seen, there is no cross slide. Were these machines supplied without them? The toolpost looks original, being similar to those I've seen online. Apparently the serial number should be stamped on one of the bed shears at the rear of the tailstock. I haven't found it yet, so I can't date the machine beyond the period of 1912 – 1921 when the type was in production.

Second and third photographs show the headstock. I can't get my head around the unusual back gear arrangement. With the shaft locked in what might be described as the rear position, both sets of gears are locked up so the spindle can't rotate…I suspect incorrect assembly by a previous owner. The leadscrew is free and rotates in it's bearings, and the clutch actuating bar is also free. The male portion of the clutch and all of the changewheels are missing so I'll have to make these, as well as fabricating a bracket for them. More info from Tony's site required!

Fourth photo shows the tailstock. Currently stuck fast on the bed, but I haven't really made any attempt to shift it as yet.

My eventual aim is to get the machine back into good order and to fit a 1HP 3ph motor with a VFD.

I have joined the Drummond group on Yahoo, so I'll be posting there too. I'm sure I'll get a lot of useful information from them as well as all the other sources. That said, I'll reiterate the questions I've got so far as I'm sure someone here will have an answer.

1) Where is the serial number likely to be?

2) Whats going on with the odd back gear arrangement?

3) Is the cross slide missing or were some machines supplied without?

Here are the pictures:-

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 30/01/2014 17:31:36

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 30/01/2014 17:38:10

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 30/01/2014 17:41:23

[Keith LongParticipant @keithlong89920]

Carl

2 possibilities come to mind for your back gear problem:-

1 have a look in the face of the large gear on the spindle pulley to see if you can find a bolt head or nut. If so slacken it off and try and slide it towards the spindle. The bolt or nut holds a block that engages in a slot in the inside of the pulley to lock them together.

2 if there isn't a bolt, look to see if you can find a grub screw buried in the bottom of one of the pulley v's. If there is try loosening it so that the pulley is free on the spindle to see if that gets the back gear working. One thing to bear in mind is that it's always possible that there are two grub screws in the same hole, the outer one locking the inner. If that's the case you'll need to loosen them both.

Hope it helps but I think 1 was the way that Drummond built it, but it may have been modified sometime in it's long life.

Keith

 

Edited By Keith Long on 30/01/2014 18:24:41

Edited By Keith Long on 30/01/2014 18:25:25

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hello Keith,

Many thanks for your post and the information therein. The arrangement you give in 1) makes more sense. The large gear or bull wheel on the spindle has a nut on the forward face of it. I know that this secures a locking block that keys together the spindle cone pulley and the bull wheel. As an aside there is a lot of backlash/play between the cone pulley and the bull wheel so I suspect either the locking block or the locating tenon in the pulley (or both) are worn. I may need to make a new block.

I can't really understand what is going on with the back gear because in one position the whole of the headstock rotating assembly is locked solid by the fact that in that position the spindle bull wheel and pinion are locked together by the gear and pinion on the back gear shaft.

I am going to start stripping the lathe down in the next few days. I will hopefully get a better idea of the scheme of things and some more information during that time. I will update here with regard to my efforts.

Carl.

[davebParticipant @daveb17630]

Slacken the nut and slide it towards the spindle to disengage it from the pulley, this releases the pulley and rear gear which are fixed together on a sleeve coaxial with the spindle, this drives the front gear and spindle, slowly. Oil the sleeve!

Dave

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hello Dave,

Thanks for that, I had suspected something of the kind. There will be a fair bit of work to do before I get to "oil the sleeve"! Great resource this site.

Going to start stripping the lathe tomorrow so I will report back as I have more to share.

Carl.

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 30/01/2014 20:40:54

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

There's a Drummond enthusiasts site at Yahoo which has some very experienced members

**LINK**

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hello Ady,

Thanks for the info, I've already joined this group and I hope to get a lot of help from it. I am in the Harrison Yahoo group and this has also been a great help.

Carl.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Morning All,

Well, first thing this morning I got my copy of Sparey down from my bookshelf. Lots of interesting photographs of Drummond B types inside. Notably the photograph on pp 39. This type B was apparently owned by a Mr. H. E. White, of the North London S.M.E. I wonder what happened to him.

I can always remember having seen or read something. Unfortunately I never seem to recall where….

Hopefully will get the machine stripped today and get some measurements made on the bed, see if I need to get it surface ground. Although it looks horrendous I'm hoping it will be basically OK under all the crud.

Carl.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Looks like a nice little project. Tony's website lathes dot co dot uk has quite a bit of info on the old Drummonds.

I have a 1937 M-Type Drummond that still does a yeoman's job as my only lathe in the workshop, including screwcutting and parting-off (with rear tool post). So I reckon they are well worth fixing up and possibly you end up with a machine better than a new Asian-made one.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hi Hopper,

That is what I am thinking. Fortunately I have a decent workshop that is integral to my house. I've got a Harrison M250 and a decent mill/drill, both well tooled. As well as that I have TIG welding equipment. I can make almost anything I need and I'm not relying on this old Drummond to be my main machine either now or in the future.

Would agree with your comments regarding the Asian lathes. That said if it were not for them a lot of people would not get into home shop engineering. A large part of my motivation to restore this machine comes from a sense of respect for it's age and it's place as a piece of heritage both for my family and British manufacturing.

That means I can pretty much justify anything to get it back into good order, and time isn't really an issue. I think that the only thing that would make me think twice about continuing would be if the bed was in a really bad way. Feeling pretty optimistic about that at the moment though.

One other thing, the photographs in Sparey lead me to believe that the 4 jaw that was with this machine (seen in my photograph above) is original.

 

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 31/01/2014 08:31:08

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 31/01/2014 08:52:46

[NobbyParticipant @nobby]

Hi Carl
Did you mean no top slide . My flatbed did not have one . so i made a little one to help when screw cutting
Nobby

Edited By Nobby on 31/01/2014 10:55:15

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hello Nobby,

Yes I meant topslide, slip of the tongue, or rather of the keyboard. I suspect the topslide has been lost over time.

Thanks for posting the picture of your machine. It looks very good indeed. I think making a topslide will be on the cards along with many other tasks.

I am developing a soft spot for these little machines.

Carl.

[NobbyParticipant @nobby]

Hi Carl
in the picture it's not the original X slide or tool post . They are under the bench
Nobby

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hello All,

Thanks for that Nobby. This afternoon I started to strip down the machine. Started removing the major sub assemblies in order to get a good look at the bed. Photograph below of bed with cross slide still in situ.

So far headstock is removed and partially dismantled, spindle and bearings are out. Spindle looks to be in decent condition without any major wear. Likewise the bearings, early indications are good. Some light scoring but nothing that won't polish out. Some superficial damage to one of the threads but nothing to write home about. There was no detectable play in the bearings pre stripdown. See photograph above. Clutch sleeve removed from leadscrew.

Have managed to locate the elusive serial number under all the dirt. It is located at the tailstock end of the leadscrew side bed shear, just as the literature says. It is 2832 which gives a date of manufacture of 1919. So she is 5 years shy of her telegram from Her Majesty. Also photograph above.

Most of the piece parts are in reasonable condition, the block that locks the bull wheel to the drive pulley is quite worn, but should be fairly straightforward to make. The thrust ring that threads onto the end of the spindle has been fairly well chewed up. Someone has used a hammer and punch to tighten it rather than a peg spanner that I assume would have been supplied with the machine when new. Again ring should be easy to make.

More dismantling to follow tomorrow, followed by cleaning and checking the bed.

Carl.

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 31/01/2014 19:39:33

[NobbyParticipant @nobby]

Hi Carl
Looking forward to your next post . it looks a great project. I made fitted a micrometer dial to mine using my
Drummond
Nobby

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hi Nobby,

That's a great job you've made of your machine. Hopefully I can do the one I have justice.

Carl.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hello All,

Removed the leadscrew and saddle today. Leadscrew handwheel is secured by two locked nuts and transmits drive via a slot engaging a transition fit pin in the screw. Once the Handwheel was off I drove this pin out and then threaded the screw towards the headstock to gain enough clearance for removal. During this I discovered that the driving feature on the full nut – a threaded section that engages a slot in the saddle – had sheared off. It was not possible to take the leadscrew out via the tailstock end due to a transition fit collar on the screw.

Once the screw was out I threaded the full not off, and it rapidly became apparent that the internal thread was very worn.

After removing the transition fit collar, I gave the leadscrew a preliminary clean and it looks to be in decent condition. One thing that gives me pause is that the thread form of the leadscrew. Maybe it is just my eyes but it looks square as opposed to acme. Does this ring any bells for anyone? I had better find out as I will need to make a new nut.

The next job is to clean 95 years of dirt from the bed and then see what condition the ways are in. Hopefully you can make sense of the photographs and what I have written.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hi,

Just got a large amount of useful information from Tony at lathes.co.uk. Makes for interesting reading and has drawings for all the components including the full nut.

Leadscrew is square thread so my eyes aren't going funny.

Have done some preliminary checks on the bed after cleaning all the surface corrosion off. Checking with straight edge and feelers so far, no appreciable wear found. There is a bit of pitting right where the saddle was sat. Presumably water and dirt etc held there for many years. I don't think it will be a huge problem, just a few spots of it.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Got the bed onto the table of my Chester mill/drill today. I wanted to do this to check the saddle and tailstock guiding and locating features are parallel. With the bed parallel to the table I ran a DTI along the relevant surfaces. All was well, certainly within 0.0005", which is probably as good as it ever was.

To be honest, I didn't expect to find anything different, I was really just satisfying my own curiosity on the matter. The chaps on the Drummond Yahoo Group have all advised me that if they find any wear on these little machines, they by and large just live with it. It has been interesting and edifying to check this one, and to learn that despite it's long life and indifferent ownership, it is substantially fine.

My mill/drill may be lacking a motor just now but it is still useful for something!

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Tailstock stripped down, good progress made on cleaning all the piece parts. Pressure washed the inside of the bed casting today in order to remove all of the accumulated swarf, dirt and oil.

The next thing is to remove all of the paint from the components.

There is quite a lot of surface corrosion on most of the parts. Notable in this regard are the backplate, chuck and saddle.

The reason I was fastidious about removing any trace of oil from the bed (and I will be with all the other parts) is that I intend to treat the whole lot in a large container of Bilt Hamber Deox-C.

[NobbyParticipant @nobby]

Hi Guys
Done some research MY Drummond lathe is an early before 1912  Pre-B-Type flat bed . the photo shows another x slide I fitted
I still have the original x slide and tool post
Nobby

Edited By Nobby on 11/02/2014 17:41:18

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hello Nobby,

It is a lovely machine that you have, and the photos you show are inspiring me to make a good job of the restoration I'm doing. Have you seen the information pack that Tony Griffiths (lathes.co.uk) does on Drummonds? It includes a number of useful drawings.

I have just come in from cleaning all the parts in a bath of toluene and then applying nitromors to all the painted surfaces. Once the paint is off and then these parts are degreased in the toluene the whole lot will be ready to go in the Deox-C.

I've started examining the piece parts now that the dirt is off. So far I've discovered that my bull wheel has a crack right across the grub screw hole.

[ian cableParticipant @iancable23486]

hi Nobby , I once had a similar problem all I did was ,clean the collar with a bit of wet and dry then turn up a press fit 1/4 thick steel collar to go over top and drill a new grub screw hole opposite the old one

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hello Ian, it isn't Nobby who has the cracked bull wheel, but me, Carl. Thanks for your post, that is a good idea for a repair scheme.

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