Doncaster ME Show and Warco.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by alan ord 2 on 10/03/2017 12:19:45:

So who paying to run artics, staff and goods up and down the country for 5 or 6 days at a time ? Quite simply WE are as the cost is amortised into the sales price charged to the customer!!

The riposte to that is 'if we charge the customer enough to cover the cost to run artics, staff and goods up and down the country for 5 or 6 days at a time they will desert us in droves for eBay'.

Customer service, spares backup, quality control, warranties and extras like attending shows do indeed mean higher prices – but a significant number of people will go to a show and 'handle twiddle' then instead of buying, they will go home and search for the same kit and take a punt on ebay or a grey import.

It's the customer's prerogative, but they can't complain if the company then stops going to shows.

Neil

[Martin 100Participant @martin100]

For many things you can just buy them online based on reputation, past experience etc but an online presence and videos as mentioned above are no replacement for getting hands on and seeing machine tools in the flesh.

If a supplier doesn't feel it worth their while to attend then so be it. I'd not travel hundreds of miles and incur an overnight stay to look at their showroom.

I am possibly in the market for a much bigger mill than my X3, maybe a Warco WM20, or a WM40 or a 4VS, viewing at the show and placing an order was a possibility. Now my money might go to the competition or I might not even bother buying 'new' Of course the margins from say a 5k or 7k sale are still next to bugger all in the grand scheme of things and there will always be plenty buying the machines sight unseen especially in the 'rich south' No doubt the shows down there will see full attendence from all suppliers regardless.

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 10/03/2017 16:59:44:

but a significant number of people will go to a show and 'handle twiddle' then instead of buying, they will go home and search for the same kit and take a punt on ebay or a grey import.

Neil

.

That is exactly what happened to the photographic retailer Jessops (although a few shops did again rise from the ashes)

People would go into a branch which were usually located in a prime top dollar rent location. Take up considerable time from the sales staff getting a full demonstration (a few of the staff did actually know what they were selling, many didn't) spent ages twiddling and asking daft questions while pretending they were a photographic genius. They would then walk out and do a google search of who was the cheapest.

Basically they were being used as a free showroom while internet operators were the ones that benefited.

Nick

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

Not a lot of choice for model engineers mills, even when sourced from the internet, same suppliers as used to go to the shows.

Fancied a change from my Dore Westbury that I built a few years ago, but not wanting to travel the length of the country to compare mills I decided to stick with what I have and spend the money on a new IMac and workshop revamp.

If I could have compared at a show I would more than likely have bought a new mill.

I must agree though that at shows you cannot get advice etc without being pushed aside by elderly back packing twiddlers (I'm 72).

[alan ord 2Participant @alanord2]

The riposte to that is 'if we charge the customer enough to cover the cost to run artics, staff and goods up and down the country for 5 or 6 days at a time they will desert us in droves for eBay'

Neil, where do you think this cost goes? Companies have a sales and general admin (S. G. & A.) charge line on their P & L account and this type of cost, when the annual budgets are set, is then usually amortised across the product range to determine the selling price of the product. I say usually because some companies apportion different amounts of the charge to different product ranges / lines depending upon their sales strategy. But I can assure you somewhere along the line the customer pays for it. These companies are not run on charitable lines and all of their operating expenses do and should be incorporated into product cost.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Alan, the cost is only amortized IF you buy something. It’s the people who just go to tyre kick who cost you money.

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

the cost is only amortized IF you buy something. It's the people who just go to tyre kick who cost you money.

A bit "Chicken & Egg" though John. On a large, non-essential, purchase like hobby machine tool equipment, many (most?) would like the opportunity to have a fondle of the product before committing to buy – I would not buy a £1500+ machine without having inspected one in the flesh, would you ?.

Shows have traditionally brought together competitors to enable direct comparisons to be made & the distribution of shows around the country allowed such comparisons to be made without excessive travel. For me, a visit to Warco (according to Google maps) is a 450 mile round trip, with Chester closer at 150 miles. Doncaster is 70 miles, so far more viable to go there to check out all the competitors in one place (should they choose to have a meaningful presence) than visit each individually. If I determine, after an inspection of the wares, that neither has a product that I am happy to purchase, that makes me an informed consumer, not a "tyre kicker". I cannot look over a new Warco machine at a show & go and purchase a new Warco machine from the internet cheaper from someone else. While the Chinese machines from various suppliers may look similar, that does not make them all the same.

I was considering swapping both my FB2 clone and RF30 for a WM18 type mill to free up a bit of space in the garage but determined, after a good look over the offerings at Doncaster last year, that I would rather stick with what I have – tyre kicker or informed consumer ?

With a reduced trade presence at Doncaster, I will probably not attend.

£0.02

Nigel B

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by alan ord 2 on 10/03/2017 17:46:13:

The riposte to that is 'if we charge the customer enough to cover the cost to run artics, staff and goods up and down the country for 5 or 6 days at a time they will desert us in droves for eBay'

Neil, where do you think this cost goes? Companies have a sales and general admin (S. G. & A.) charge line on their P & L account and this type of cost, when the annual budgets are set, is then usually amortised across the product range to determine the selling price of the product. I say usually because some companies apportion different amounts of the charge to different product ranges / lines depending upon their sales strategy. But I can assure you somewhere along the line the customer pays for it. These companies are not run on charitable lines and all of their operating expenses do and should be incorporated into product cost.

As someone who has run a charity and a businesses, I can start by telling you it's a darn sight harder to run a charity! When you aren't allowed to make a profit it is a hell of a job to build up necessary operating reserves as everyone expects each service to be delivered at (less than) cost!

You said:

Posted by alan ord 2 on 10/03/2017 12:19:45:

So who paying to run artics, staff and goods up and down the country for 5 or 6 days at a time ? Quite simply WE are as the cost is amortised into the sales price charged to the customer!!

Putting my point more simply: Increasingly you don't – because suppliers are having to cut attendance at shows to keep prices competitive with companies who don't have the additional overheads of maintaining a proper UK presence. i.e. the people who want to see machines at shows won't pay the prices that would make that attendance viable.

An alternative might be to price tickets for shows up around the £30 – £50 mark, and provide free space to companies, although stand space is one of the lesser costs of attending a show. (LOL! Can anyone imagine a model engineer paying £30 to get into a show, even if all the big suppliers were there?)

Neil

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

More to the point Neil on a cost v value for money it’s easier to have open days.
No transport, no stand rent, no lost time loading and unloading, no hotels and EVERYTHING on stock not just a selection.

I have said it before but will repeat it, don’t you think they have done their homework first before making this decision ? Arc, Proops, Warco, Hemingway have all bailed out, Chester has a much reduced presence, doesn’t that tell you anything ?
OK warco is in Surry, Chester is in Chester, Arc is in Leicester but Benidorm is still in Spain and the Greek islands are still in Greece but that doesn’t stop anyone from visiting does it ?

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Nigel B on 10/03/2017 19:20:37:

I would not buy a £1500+ machine without having inspected one in the flesh, would you ?.

 

Nigel B

.

I did, (well £1200) so I would imagine many others would also do so.

This was my first machine purchase when starting out. I bought it 2nd hand blind on ebay not really sure what would turn up on the delivery pallet other than what was written on Lathes.co.uk never having actually seen one let alone put my grubby maulers on one.

It was exactly the same story for my milling machine but that was cheaper at £550

Nick

 

Edited By Nick_G on 10/03/2017 19:56:14

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Bought a Warco WM40 from Warco, sight unseen until it got dropped on the yard, 7 odd grands worth and believe it or not although I have seen Warco at the shows , I have never been to their place.

Edited By John Stevenson on 10/03/2017 20:05:44

[alan ord 2Participant @alanord2]

John, tyre kickers are not new. They have been around since day one so that is not the reason Warco is not attending Doncaster show. I speculate that it is more to do with their operating margins being squeezed. When this occurs the first place companies look to cut is their advertising budgets. My guess is they have looked at the investment required to attend Doncaster show and decided that the return does not justify the outlay. I would also say that as they buy most of their equipment from China (who trade in US$) they are experiencing pricing problems due to the fall in the £ sterling. In the short term this should not be a problem for two reasons. The first is that it is prudent to hedge the currency exchange rate between the £ and $ which most companies do to protect from fluctuations. Most contracts are relatively short term of around a year. However most contracts include a clause if the exchange rate changes significantly, it triggers renegotiation of the rate. As we all know sterling dropped by an unprecedented amount last year after the referendum. The second point is that most companies will have a supply agreement agreed which includes fixed pricing but again there will be a get out jail clause to protect against significant volatility. However knowing and being involved with the Chinese I know that a contract to them is just a piece of paper and they will tear it up if things go wrong and walk away. The Chinese are ruthless and tough negotiators but the interesting thing about them is their code of honour. If you look him in the eye and shake his hand this means more to them than a bit of paper.

It would however be interesting to hear something from Warco or the show organisers. Strange how quite they have been.

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by alan ord 2 on 10/03/2017 20:12:52:

It would however be interesting to hear something from Warco or the show organisers. Strange how quite they have been.

.

I would imagine it's because they have zero knowledge of this thread being the main cause.

Nick

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by alan ord 2 on 10/03/2017 20:12:52:

John, tyre kickers are not new.

What is new, are the people who use shows to look at various machines, but then go home and order a clone off the web.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Nick_G on 10/03/2017 20:31:59:

Posted by alan ord 2 on 10/03/2017 20:12:52:

It would however be interesting to hear something from Warco or the show organisers. Strange how quite they have been.

.

I would imagine it's because they have zero knowledge of this thread being the main cause.

Nick

Different suppliers have different policies about responding on forums. Most companies will want view on an issue like this to come from the top or not at all, and not all companies have an MD who is comfortable with this sort of discussion, especially as whatever they say, someone will gainsay it! A notable exception are Arc Euro Trade and Ketan posted at length about why he would no longer be attending shows.

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by alan ord 2 on 10/03/2017 20:12:52:

It would however be interesting to hear something from Warco or the show organisers. Strange how quite they have been.

What wouyld be strange is if Warco did comment, if you look through all the other threads with Warco in the title I doubt you will find any response from them.

J

[Dave SpicerParticipant @davespicer27262]

JasonB

It's difficult to get a positive response over the phone.

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Posted by Nick_G on 10/03/2017 19:55:41:

Posted by Nigel B on 10/03/2017 19:20:37:

I would not buy a £1500+ machine without having inspected one in the flesh, would you ?.

Nigel B

.

I did, (well £1200) so I would imagine many others would also do so.

This was my first machine purchase when starting out. I bought it 2nd hand blind on ebay not really sure what would turn up on the delivery pallet other than what was written on Lathes.co.uk never having actually seen one let alone put my grubby maulers on one.

It was exactly the same story for my milling machine but that was cheaper at £550

Nick

Edited By Nick_G on 10/03/2017 19:56:14

​I did 32 years ago; & it only cost me a few quid, less than a tenner iirc, but I'm still paying for it now… she's called SWMBO!… & yes she was inspected in the flesh prior to purchase… … come on guys we've all done it … inspected before buying…!!

George.

[petro1headParticipant @petro1head]

I spoke to Warco this morning, I had not seen this thread but had heard the rumour they would not be at Doncaster, and they confirmed they would not be there.

Their main reason was cost and the fact that last years Doncaster show just did not have the same vibe as the previous years Harrogate shows. They also said that at Harrogate there were a lot of people from the North East visiting the stand but not the same numbers at Doncaster.

I would be interested in the view of people here who have to both the Doncaster show and the Harrogate one and how they compared?

I also spent a couple of grand on a Warco mill without seeing it in the flesh

Edited By petro1head on 13/03/2017 18:45:27

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

As I have already said on a parallel posting, Harrogate far better than Doncaster. I can easily see Roger Warren's point about the potential for WARCO at these shows. Same applied (unfortunately) at the Sandown venue on a Sunday.

Edited By KWIL on 13/03/2017 19:34:56

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Irrespective of the Harrogate v Doncaster argument, long , short is if they hadn't moved to Doncaster there would have been no show.

End of story.

Harrogate doubled the hall rent for a smaller hall. The ME show wasn't the only ones to bail out last year, approximately 10 or 12 other shows either pulled out or moved venue.

[petro1headParticipant @petro1head]

So a bit short sighted of the Harrogate venue

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by petro1head on 13/03/2017 21:07:48:

So a bit short sighted of the Harrogate venue

It depend how many shows they have. If they now have half as many shows but charge them twice as much, they make a hefty saving on staff…

Neil

[MalcBParticipant @malcb52554]

I also went to the last Harrogate show and the first Doncaster show.

To say one show was better than the other in just that open context isnt really correct. There are quite a few different reasons that people wish to attend the shows. What are they going for? In no order:

Model Steam engines, traction engines, locos, stationary engines etc, New machinery and equipment. New and used tooling, new technolgy items, raw materials, fittings, fixings, kits, castings etc. Club exhibitions, information, meet builders, examine finishing of item and the list goes on and is exhaustive.

What makes it "better" over another show is how much is there which relates to those particular interests of the visitor.

To someone really looking at comparing new machinery equipment, tooling etc then Warco would be sorely missed and the show may well be deemed not as good.

To somebody going for say, the model locos then it likely wont make a difference or may be a tad better if more club exhibits take their place.

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

The last Harrogate & first Doncaster for me too, my impression was that there were better vibes at the Harrogate show, hustling between the old farts with backpacks on, ( Yeh include me in that category at display stands, vendor stands etc was a much better ambience, to me. Doncaster seemed to have something lacking, can't put a finger on it, just ' it' wasn't quite there, plus the extra time getting there. Personal preferences I suppose.

George.

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