Do you “still” enjoy driving?

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Mick B1 on 17/08/2022 10:42:21:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 16/08/2022 14:03:08:

Posted by John Doe 2 on 16/08/2022 10:41:04:

… I like spirited driving – safely and within the law – and swooping along a curvy A road in glorious scenery is a real joy. What gives me this confidence?, well landing airliners at around 140mph in the dark and pouring rain, while keeping straight on the runway – even with a cross-wind – gave me plenty of practice of hand-eye coordination, and fine tunes one's motor responses !

…

Is that wise Captain Mainwaring? When an airliner lands on a runway, enormous care has been taken by Uncle Tom Cobley and All to make sure the pilot doesn't meet anything untoward like an airliner coming the other way!

Public roads are far more hazardous than runways. Airline pilots don't have to deal with common motoring misadventures such as merging traffic, obstacles, wandering pedestrians, oncoming traffic, incompetent drivers in addition to self, diversions, congestion and roadworks. These are best dealt with by slowing down.

Do I detect a misunderstanding? Public roads aren't provided for motorists to have fun on and being a good pilot doesn't make one a good driver.

En-route to Tesco's, I don't want to share the road with drivers who believe in their hand-eye coordination and fine tuned motor responses! Those skills are fine in their place – on a race-track.

Dave

 

This ^

Dave has put it more tidily than I could have, and more tolerantly than I would have.

Of course roads are made for fun! We'd all be driving standard issue low-powered utilitarian commuter cars if they weren't. There would be one model car available, all the same colour, all the same trim, all going the same safe sensible speed. A Lada or Trabant. Nobody would spend the extra thousands on a nice BMW 6 Series or a sporty little Skoda Hatchback if it was not for fun out there on the roads.

And you had better hope your fellow drivers have hand-eye co-ordination and finely tuned motor responses if you want them to avoid collisions. A road full of uncoordinated dimwits with poor reflexes would be a nightmare. (Err, actually it sounds like the main road between my house and town. )

Edited By Hopper on 17/08/2022 11:48:41

[A SmithParticipant @asmith78105]

Do I detect a misunderstanding? Public roads aren't provided for motorists to have fun on and being a good pilot doesn't make one a good driver

Sound of many giggling motorcyclists……

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by A Smith on 17/08/2022 12:02:08:

Do I detect a misunderstanding? Public roads aren't provided for motorists to have fun on and being a good pilot doesn't make one a good driver

Sound of many giggling motorcyclists……

Guilty as charged, yer 'onour.

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

I used to work in (Military) Accident Data Replay; overconfidence paid my mortgage. NTSB reckon 88% of civil aviation accidents are pilot error. Despite what aircrew might tell you there are still fallible human beings underneath the scrambled egg on their peaked caps. I suspect they won't be being issued with "exempt from normal rules of the road" passes any time soon.

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

I am pretty sure that the 2 second rule has been in place since I started driving 40 years ago. The Mrs has reminded me that it applies only in clear, dry weather.

I suspect that 4 seconds was more appropriate for the brakes of the cars I drove for the first 15 years, probably right up to my first anti-lock braked car.

88% "pilot error" seems against the principles of process safety, It implies that the reliance on humans is too much, such as the way information is presented or the nature of the controls.

The "normal" solution to that is modern avionics which has resulted in several accidents as flexible pilots are replaced with inflexible automatic safety systems. Ho hum, roll on self-driving cars.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Been reading this thread but not felt the need to comment before.

I have a very red, very shiney new Italian car that is giving me great pleasure just sitting on my drive. However, I get even more pleasure driving it around – as it is perfectly balanced and a delight to drive – it's also quite fast enough for me in my old age.

It has a few 'new' (to me) tricks up it's sleve, adaptive cruise being one, which at first I wasn't too sure about. I'm growing to like it more, as it's quite clever and (if I feel like speeding up) I just need to move over into the faster lane and the car picks up to the selected speed and then settles down again. So I get to choose between mouching along behind slower traffic or overtaking them as required (I'm talking M'ways of course).

However, there are other new features too. A few weeks back I was following a large SUV towing a jet ski (on a straight section of B road) when for no apparent reason he did a hard stop from about 40mph (the cars in front of him didn't slow or brake that I saw but continued on). It took me a split second to realise that he really was stopping hard and not just steadying his vehicle before I really hit the brakes, but as we got a bit nearer, my car seemed to think I wasn't doing enough and really stopped us. It wasn't like any previous ABS systems I've had, this was like running into a thick jelly – we just stopped!! (with a good six foot to spare). The B***** then just drove on/off, so I've no idea what the problem was.

Fortunately, I had no one immediately behind me because I think they would have rear-ended me.

So I'm very impressed with my new motors ability to stop really quickly but just a little worried about what happens when other (older) cars are following behind me at the time. But to answer the original question – I'm driving up to N.Wales soon and I am very much looking forward to doing so.

Regards,

IanT

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

Congestion at an Airport? We were at LAX- Los Angeles, California, stuck in a traffic jam. Looked behind Me and seen 10 rows of airplanes with 2 in a row coming in to land. Hope the lead plane did not stuff it up.

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

The thread started by asking 'do you still enjoy driving' – yes, I do – if conditions allow me to safely swoop along curvy A roads – it is fantastic fun ! Nobody said anything about racing. Those who don't like driving, but trundle along in groups at 44mph, wearing their coats in the car, don't seem to me to be having fun at all.

Several replies seem to take from this that I am a boy racer and drive inconsiderately and dangerously. Nothing could be further from the truth. Passing a motorbike licence and my day job instills a very solid appreciation of safety and danger – at much higher speeds and energies than one experiences on the road – and of external influences, such as weather and road conditions, coupled with lots of practice of hand-eye coordination and fine motor control.

To the middle lane brigade: it is actually safer to drive in lane one because you have the hard shoulder immediately on your left, rather than having to cross another lane to reach it in an emergency. Smart motorways have done away with hard shoulders of course, but still safer to stop in the lefthand-most lane than either swerve across traffic or stop in the middle of the motorway.

Re airliner simulators; the "real" full motion ones cost many many millions, and are exactly like the real cockpits – they are the real cockpits. They have exactly the same controls, and the feel of the controls and switches is identical to the real thing. The visuals too are amazing; weather can be added – snow flakes blowing across the window etc. In one simulator, as we prepared to push-back and start the engines, I noticed that far away, I could see traffic driving along a road outside the airport !! That's how detailed the professional simulators are – they have to be: If you are approaching to land in fog, you might have only a second at decision height to assess whether you can see enough of the runway and continue to land, or go-around, depending on what you can see at that point. At it's minimum, this can legally be just three runway lights. Pilots re-validate their licence instrument ratings in full-flight simulators, so the simulators must be able to reproduce the visuals perfectly.

 

Manchester on a misty day. Airbus A320. Real or simulator ?

 

 

Edited By John Doe 2 on 18/08/2022 10:27:58

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

John,

My guess is a simulator as there is no one at the controls and you are on a "supposed" runway.

Regards

Derek

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

You win today's prize, for exactly the reason you state.

 

@IanT, I suspect that the guy suddenly stopping in front of you was getting really annoyed that no matter what he did, you were continually following him at a fixed distance. Or were too close to him. What he did was wrong and dangerous, but it is very annoying when someone behind follows you at the same speed and same distance for miles and miles – speeding up when you speed up, slowing down when you slow down. This is something to be aware of when using fixed-distance cruise controls.

 

Edited By John Doe 2 on 18/08/2022 10:48:08

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by John Doe 2 on 18/08/2022 10:21:32:

Edited By John Doe 2 on 18/08/2022 10:27:58

I think I could enjoy driving that ! Real or simulator.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Thanks John !

To me that could be "real" enough though….I know a mate whose son used to install, test and commission these simulators. Before handing over one of the simulators over to the customer, his son showed his parents around it. The story goes he took them inside and set the simulator to be on final approach at Paris Charles De Gaulle airport at night and asked his father "land" it.

With his son sat in the co-pilots seat watching the fun….his dad (my mate) in the pilots seat. Needless to say he crashed it – with his wife screaming behind him in the observers seat – he said he was a sweaty nervous wreck after ! He said is was so realistic with all the alarms going off and noise…

I can understand now from what you are saying that the simulators are so good that pilots can use these to re-validate their licences.

Great photo by the way

All the best

Derek

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

I feel the same as John Doe 2. You cannot beat the enjoyment of swooping along a curvy A or B road. You take all the road conditions (including other drivers, if any) into consideration. The Police have a phrase for it "Making Good Progress". If you have been out with driving assessors then you will have had to give a running commentary of everything that you can see going on around you, and all possible issues/problems along the route, eg. school, kids playing by roadside, cyclists etc. This teaches you to be very aware of what is going on around you, and you are using all your senses, sight, sound, feel of the car.

I have been driving for over 55 years and have gradually seen an increase in the number of people who will not attempt to overtake a slower vehicle, when fully safe to do so. This leads to long queues of slowly moving traffic in many cases travelling at 40 to 45 mpg in 50 and 60 mph areas. Not only are they slow moving but the gaps they leave between each vehicle is very short, leaving no possible scope for anyone to attempt an overtake.

When on Motorways I always try to keep to the 2 second rule, but regularly someone will pull out without signal into the gap I have left.

I enjoy driving and will be doing a 2500 mile trip up to and around Scotland in open topped car (Caterham 420R) in near future. The few Motorway bits we are travelling will be a bit of a pain but this will be compensated for by the N. Yorks Moors, Scottish Borders, Skye and the Cairngorms.

Colin

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by IanT on 17/08/2022 16:53:26:

…

So I'm very impressed with my new motors ability to stop really quickly but just a little worried about what happens when other (older) cars are following behind me at the time. …

That's a real problem! Drivers tend to assume that other vehicles brake and accelerate just like theirs, and do so consistently whatever the road conditions.

Performance cars get caught out by stopping much faster than the vehicle behind, and by their ABS and steering not working perfectly on ice, oil spills, or wet leaves! Running out of road by whilst overtaking behind a sluggish car that didn't get out of the way in time put a friend in hospital for 6 months with 'polytrauma'. 100% his fault for assuming the car in front was as quick as his. The other driver finished OK, but he found himself entering a blind bend at 90mph on the wrong side of the road…

The design purpose of the car can be a problem too – super-cars are hopeless in towns! Too low for kerbs, poor turning circle, bad low speed control, no boot or passenger space etc. American muscle cars were famously inferior on European roads because they couldn't take corners at speed. They were also out-accelerated by cars burning considerably less fuel, that stuck well to bendy roads. My car's designed for urban fuel economy and overtaking safely requires considerable judgement – much harder than the sporty cars I've driven.

Ordinary cars get caught out by taking too long to stop, too long to overtake, and their indifferent road-holding. Modern cars are much better than older ones though.

When stuck behind a slow-mo, I remind myself that the driver may be compensating for his poor eyesight, slow reactions, bald tyres, empty fuel tank, iffy brakes or a flashing engine warning light. Or maybe he's concentrating on being lost, or listening to upsetting noises coming from the suspension or his wife… Even brilliant drivers drive badly when distracted!

And perhaps the fool has seen something I haven't, like a speed trap.

Dave

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

I work on flight simulators myself (for another three weeks at least before I change jobs), but for the Navy/FAA. Is that one of the old FlyBe sims? We took some of their staff when that all collapsed.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Posted by John Doe 2 on 18/08/2022 10:41:10:

You win today's prize, for exactly the reason you state.

@IanT, I suspect that the guy suddenly stopping in front of you was getting really annoyed that no matter what he did, you were continually following him at a fixed distance. Or were too close to him. What he did was wrong and dangerous, but it is very annoying when someone behind follows you at the same speed and same distance for miles and miles – speeding up when you speed up, slowing down when you slow down. This is something to be aware of when using fixed-distance cruise controls.

Edited By John Doe 2 on 18/08/2022 10:48:08

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear JD. I only use cruise on M'ways – we were on a B road at the time and had just left a 30mph area and we were in a line of traffic (and fortunately) I was at the tail end – nor was I tailgating him or I would have hit him. We'd just gone past a side lane, so perhaps he'd missed his turn. I've no idea but I don't think he braked because I was annoying him – in fact I think it's more likely he hadn't even noticed me.

Dave – "performance" is an interesting word. My car is 'quick' but not particularly so by modern standards, especially so when compared to many EVs and hybrids. The 'performance' Tesla 3 can hit 60mph in 3 secs and even the base model can do it in about 6 secs I believe. That would have been supercar performance not too long ago. Of course, there are a few other EV issues too – weight being one that isn't talked about very often.

My new saloon weighs 1429kgs, pretty light, especially when compared to my son's hybrid car which is about the same size. It's a whopping 415kgs heavier (900+lbs) and it's not even a full BEV. So we have some very heavy, very fast cars hurling around us that have all sorts of interesting software running them these days.

Btw – I started the braking but I'm certain the car took over when it detected the car in front closing fast. As far as I can see, it's not possible to disable this function either – so another good reason not to tailgate these days…

Regards,

IanT

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

Posted by Jon Lawes on 18/08/2022 12:18:58:

I work on flight simulators myself (for another three weeks at least before I change jobs), but for the Navy/FAA. Is that one of the old FlyBe sims? We took some of their staff when that all collapsed.

Flybe have never operated Airbus aircraft – they fly Bombardier and Embraer aircraft. They used to operate the BAe146 too; those simulators are at Woodford, Manchester.

The Airbus Sim in my photo would have been one at Gatwick. They are extremely realistic – they are the actual real thing, just cut-off behind the cockpit door and put on full motion jacks. The way they recreate some of the forces is very clever. On acceleration for take-off, the Sim pushes forward, but soon runs out of travel. So it then tilts the whole simulator up but keeps the visuals inside level. Inside the Sim, all we can detect and feel is a constant level acceleration pushing us into our seats, but it is actually coming from gravity, not real linear acceleration. 

We have to go in one for 4 hours a day for 2 days every 6 months to prove we can fly all the profiles, and all the emergencies. These include loss of an engine at the point we are "rotating" to lift off the runway, (commercial twin engined aircraft are certificated to be able to perfectly safely continue the take-off on the remaining engine, but you have to get the aircraft control exactly right). Other challenges are loss of hydraulic power, or loss of all main electrical generators, or rapid decompression at 35,000', or the 'death' of the other pilot !! All good fun.

 

[quote]…….. but he found himself entering a blind bend at 90mph on the wrong side of the road…………..[quote] Highly dangerous and illegal.

[quote]……….When stuck behind a slow-mo, I remind myself that the driver may be compensating for his poor eyesight, slow reactions, bald tyres, empty fuel tank, iffy brakes or a flashing engine warning light. Or maybe he's concentrating on being lost, or listening to upsetting noises coming from the suspension or his wife… Even brilliant drivers drive badly when distracted! [quote]

Agreed, and all part of "situational awareness" – looking and thinking well ahead, and allowing for external, (and internal), factors as you describe, including being aware if another driver is clearly not concentrating on the road, or indeed if I myself am not and need a break.

One classic example of drivers not concentrating or thinking ahead  is when I stop alongside a row of parked cars to reverse park into a space. As I wait, stopped, just ahead of a space on the left, with my brake lights on, my reversing lights on, and my left indicator on, some idiot invariably comes up and stops right behind me. With my car's position on the road and the lights I am showing to the rear, what do they think I am attempting to do? Oh yes, he wants to reverse park into that space !! So perhaps they should stop well back, allowing me the room to do so, instead of stopping right behind me and blocking me completely, so I have to give up and drive on.

.

Edited By John Doe 2 on 19/08/2022 08:37:45

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by John Doe 2 on 19/08/2022 08:25:30:

Oh yes, he wants to reverse park into that space !! So perhaps they should stop well back, allowing me the room to do so, instead of stopping right behind me and blocking me completely, so I have to give up and drive on.

Edited By John Doe 2 on 19/08/2022 08:37:45

And as you do drive on you know the guy behind is thinking you are an idiot because they believe you were so incompetent that you weren't capable of parking in that space and just drove away. Nothing to do with them of course!

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 19/08/2022 08:53:40

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

John Doe2 sums it very nicely.

Maybe I am biased, having been taught by someone who had passed the driving examiner test, eventually passing a PSV test as well as test driving a variety of commercial vehicles.   At the right speed, a truck will go round the MIRA track hands off!

(Never considered my self even barely good at reversing an articulated tanker round corners! )

Having experienced a bicycle, where the brakes just did not work in the wet, or older vehicles with indifferent brakes, it becomes a habit to look well ahead and keep your distance.

In that way, you don't imagine that anti lock brake make you immortal and end up on the roof of the second car in a multiple nose to tail pile up in Lane 3 of the M6.

The Police driving manual, "Roadcraft" promotes the "2 Second Rule" . Obeying it, and lifting off in time saves a lot of fuel, brake pads and tyres, as well as collisions.

Possibly, if cars were a lot less easy to drive, (needing skill and concentration  ), natural selection would soon weed out the incompetent!

Not enough people seem to regard driving as a skill to make it universally enjoyable.

The pleasure comes from keeping out of their way and arriving intact

Howard

Edited By Howard Lewis on 19/08/2022 18:51:51

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

When I worked in deepest North Wales it became a bit of an obsession to see what mpg I could get on the commute to Cheshire. I came to the conclusion that speed didn't make a lot of difference (you can't go very fast on those roads anyway, you either exit at the next corner, or if you're on a straight bit the North Wales police get you) as long as you never touched the brakes. I once managed all the way home, about 90 miles, but you have to anticipate a long way in advance and know the road like the back of your hand.

in answer to the original question, no I'd rather go by train nowadays, but planning a trip to Gloucestershire I've found I can get close by trai fairly quickly, but the last 10 miles will take me over an hour by bus, but that bus only runs once a week, and I'd still have a longish walk at the far end, so it looks like driving

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

John Doe, In the parking manouvre I would start to back up, my car is a motorised tool box with battle scars ( previous owner/ car cheap) MOST get the message, some may even feel guilty for not realising what I was doing in the first place ! YES I still enjoy driving ! Taking a 12' cut combine 12 miles up the main road was always fun – some were brave enough to take you on – they always lost ! In rural Norfolk buses or trains are not an option ! Noel.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by duncan webster on 20/08/2022 00:33:43:

When I worked in deepest North Wales it became a bit of an obsession to see what mpg I could get on the commute to Cheshire. I came to the conclusion that speed didn't make a lot of difference (you can't go very fast on those roads anyway, you either exit at the next corner, or if you're on a straight bit the North Wales police get you) as long as you never touched the brakes. I once managed all the way home, about 90 miles, but you have to anticipate a long way in advance and know the road like the back of your hand.

…

Snap, except I tried it on several trips from Somerset to Bangor and back, where my daughter was at the University.

As most of my personal travel was, and is, local, I own small town-friendly cars. Manoeuvrable, economical, and able to get into and through tight gaps rather suitable for long journeys. At the time, the car was approaching end of life, so safer to keep the rpm moderate and minimise acceleration, braking and clutch work.

Anyway, not being in a rush, I cruised at about 55mph, mostly on the inside lane of a motorway, and managed to do the same on dual carriageways and A-roads. Same speed as most heavy vehicles and bowling along with them there is almost no need to brake, change gear, or pump the throttle unless traffic conditions are adverse. The old-banger was much quieter too – at 70mph the engine, transmission and wheels are all noisy, plus everything rattles.

Although the journey took a bit longer, it was less tiring. (At work got to drive lots of different new cars. Being quiet and comfortable makes them far less tiring to drive at speed, and of course I wasn't paying for the fuel!!! Speeding was a constant risk in them – the racket makes it obvious when a tiny ancient town car is doing 70mph, but I soon learned to watch the speedometer in go-faster hire cars. I accidentally drifted up to 110mph on a motorway because the car just quietly did it. There was no sense of strain and the car was well short of flat-out. Good job the road was almost empty, it was before cameras on bridges, and the police were elsewhere.)

Although I tried hard I failed to get 60mpg out of my car which averaged 48mpg in normal service. Between Bristol and Bangor, about 200 miles, I managed once to never touch the brakes and got 59mpg. I got 60mpg whilst cruising but getting to Bristol and driving through is hard work, and though delightful, North Wales doesn't have a fuel efficient road system. Towns, roadworks, and other traffic make it difficult to maximise mpg.

On the whole I keep up with other traffic rather than chase personal best targets. Driving slowly where it's difficult to overtake annoys other drivers and driving fast with lots of overtaking is risky.

Dave

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