Do you need an oil change with less than 10,000 miles in 10 years?

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Pete,

You joke? Ten, rather than hundred?

Howard

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Seem to remember hearing quite a few years ago about American engines that were sealed for life, no way to change oil or filter, and I believe guaranteed for hundred thousand miles. Anyone know anything about them?

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Seem to remember hearing quite a few years ago about American engines that were sealed for life, no way to change oil or filter, and I believe guaranteed for hundred thousand miles.

Northstar engines ?

Nigel B.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

From an OEM training course GM developed a 2 stroke diesel based on the 6V92 for greyhound busses in the states that had an oil charge from new and you were just supposed to change the filter every so many hours. The filter allegedly contained a new additive pack to “refresh” the oil. No idea if it caught on, never actually came across one in the UK! I might still have the spec leaflet on it somewhere that they gave us.

Paul.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I think some big industrial or marine engines have on line oil cleaning plants, you get rid of the crud and add a bit of new stuff. Aircraft engines I've been told send off a sample and only change when advised. I never changed the engine oil in my first motorbike, it was a 2 stroke. Even when I got a 4 stroke it leaked so much it was a sort of continual oil change setup.

[Adrian R2Participant @adrianr2]

On the original question I have two cars:

– Daily driver* diesel hatchback, oil + filter changed every 20K using dipstick suction device and whatever budget oil has the right spec numbers on the container, sump plug hasn't been out since paying excessive charges at a dealer at 40K, now over 320K and looks like rust or regulations will get it before engine dies.

– Occasional use petrol sportscar, does <500/year, was filled with premium fully synthetic oil ~10 years ago and is still using that. Filter has been changed a couple of times in the interim.

*edit, more like weekly driver these days.

Edited By Adrian R2 on 18/07/2023 09:06:12

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Duncan

The oil sampling of aircraft engines was carried out to determine when the bearings were beginning to wear, it was possible to detect microscopic particles that were shed from the bearings, We used to carry out the process on our elderly fleet of RAF Brittanias during the 60’s and 70’s right up until they left service in 75. Dave W

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

The price of oil might seem expensive these days, but tell me what other thing you could buy for your car for the same money that would have the same benefit. The very best thing to give your engine is new, high quality oil, regularly changed.

I always use Mobil 1 fully synthetic, which is easily the best oil, and I change it according to the service schedule – although, I err on sooner rather than later.

Mobil 1 and a filter cost around £70, (plus an hour of my time). That is a very small price to pay for absolute security and top engine performance and longevity.

Also, using a high quality oil such as Mobil 1 fully synthetic massively reduces engine wear to pretty much zero. 

Edited By John Doe 2 on 18/07/2023 11:45:57

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 16/07/2023 10:41:21:

The comparison – early in this series of messages – with cooking oil is not helpful or even relevant. Cooking oil is vegetable or animal in origin, but mineral oil is, well, mineral. That means it has been hanging around on the earth for millions of years, and anything which will go off in a year or two has gone.

Cheers, Tim

As far as I know, most motor oil is based on vegetable stock. More importantly it contains a whole bunch of synthetic additives that account for most of the cost.

If Tim can guarantee that none of those constituents will suffer from degradation from moisture or combustion derived acid over a 10 year period, then I suggest you leave the oil for another 10 years.

Personally, I think it is past it's use before date.

Martin

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

When possible, oil analysis e3nables the user to determine the p[oint at which the opil should be changed.

Regular oil sampling enabled generator set engines lighting the construction of the channel tunnel to have a life far in excess of that normally envisaged.

TML were so pleased with the engines that after strip examination, they wanted them back to continue running!

With regular oil sampling and servicing, engines subjected to test cycles that should vastly shorten their lives, were stripped and found to in excellent condition, and could be reassembled using the original components for further service.

Regular servicing pays. It is more economical than running into the ground with cheap oil, and little or no servicing.

I've seen this from both sides, and know which proves the more reliable and cheapest.

Howard.

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

I was very amused when returning to my car at the airport to see some airport ramp workers get into their cars and move away the instant their engines fired – I guess they were the type who will not spend a second longer at work than they have to – or maybe they were having a race. But they obviously did this on every engine start because both their engines sounded like buckets of bolts being shaken up !

I had a tool made that I could use with an electric drill down the distributer hole to run the oil pump of a Rover V8 engine I was rebuilding; so I could prime all the oil passages and bearings before the first restart after reassembly. I kept the rocker covers off while I did this to monitor progress, and it took about 20 seconds of quite hard pumping before the oil started to appear up at the rocker shafts. So I always let my car idle for at least that time before moving away, and I drive gently until the oil is up to temperature.

Aircraft engines are run for a specified time, (3-5 mins), and until a specified minimum oil temperature, before take-off. They also have to be run at idle power for a specified minimum time before shutting down. And yes, oil is sampled and sent away to detect metal flecks, which might indicate impending bearing failure. From the composition of any such particles, they can sometimes determine which bearing it is.

Re sludge and turbo chargers; fully synthetic oil is the way to go, (and also engine cool-down time). Does anyone else remember the original Mobil 1 adverts showing oil in two frying pans being heated on a stove? After a while the mineral oil degraded into a thick treacle, whereas the fully synthetic oil was still as thin and flowing as it was before being cooked. That knowledge informed my oil purchases from then on !

Spending money on 'expensive' fully synthetic oil is actually cheaper in the long run. You get very good performance and get no sludge at all, and the engine internals remain bright, clean, and wear-free. A colleague where I used to work always bought the very cheapest, most basic mineral oil for his car, and his engine sounded like a bucket of bolts as well !

.

Edited By John Doe 2 on 19/07/2023 11:38:50

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Posted by Mark Rand on 15/07/2023 23:08:52:

Posted by Grindstone Cowboy on 15/07/2023 22:26:25:

I do an oil and filter change once a year, just before the MOT – this is usually about 8 to 10 thousand miles for me. A mechanic friend told me it helps lower the emissions for the test

Rob

I hope you don't use him as a mechanic…

Why do you think we have low ash content oils (SAPS)?

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Spending money on 'expensive' fully synthetic oil is actually cheaper in the long run.

Rather depends if your engine can tolerate it.

I decided to "upgrade" to full syntthetic 20W50 in a 2 valve BMW motorcycle engine following an overhaul. I used Millers oil, as they are local. Oil consumption was horrendous & at one point mid-tour I had to clean the plugs of excessive burnt oil deposits. On my return I contacted Miller's technical depart, described what had happened & they were not suprised – apparently a common issue on older engine designs when run on full synthetic oil & they recommended changing back to their mineral 20W50. With that oil installed, oil consumption returned to normal levels – normal in this case being about 2000 miles per pint.

WRT to your time taken to get oil flow in a rebuilt engine – did you repeat the excercise later on after all the pump / filter / galleries had been filled from empty to get a better idea of how long it took to see flow from a "normal, after standing" condition ? I would not expect subsequent starts to take any where near as long to see flow, as the system would not have drained down to an "as rebuilt" dry condition with standing ? It took several seconds for the oil light to extinguish on first start after a recent oil & filter change on my motorhome, but the light goes out almost instantaneously on subesquent starts, regardless of how long the engine has been stood.

The first car my brother bought after emigrating to NZ was the Holden badged version of a Vauxhall Astra. This was a turbo diesel & had been fitted by a previous owner with an aftermarket "turbo guard" unit. This was basically an off-delay timer which kept the engine running for a short while after the ingition was turned off to give the turbo some time to cool down before the engine stopped – automating what would be considered best practice for the forgetful.

Nigel B.

Forgot to mention that Millers offer an oil analysis service at a reasonabale rate for those who might wish to try this. I could see the value to someone looking to buy an expensive vehicle to check that the engine was not harbouring expensive secrets, but the cost is similar to buying fresh oil for most vehicles so probably not a saving on doing regular oil changes.

Edited By mgnbuk on 19/07/2023 14:00:00

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Posted by John MC on 19/07/2023 11:57:30:

Posted by Mark Rand on 15/07/2023 23:08:52:

Posted by Grindstone Cowboy on 15/07/2023 22:26:25:

I do an oil and filter change once a year, just before the MOT – this is usually about 8 to 10 thousand miles for me. A mechanic friend told me it helps lower the emissions for the test

Rob

I hope you don't use him as a mechanic…

Why do you think we have low ash content oils (SAPS)?

Not having a clue what they are, I'd never thought about it at all

A quick Google gives me the impression they are for diesel engines – I've never had a diesel.

I guess the validity of the theory could be proved fairly easily by doing an emissions test on a car with old, dirty oil, changing it and then repeating the test. Anyone with free access to an MOT-grade emissions tester?

Rob

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

The problem with oil consumption is not use of synthetic oil per se, it'a getting the right viscosity. some years ago I ran a early Porsche turbo (924T). I usually did work myself but it need a clutch which is not a one man job. I entrusted it to the local dealer and include an oil change. As soon as it got warm mooving of from traffic lights it laid a vertiable smoke screen. Long story short they had put "zero weight" Mobil 1 oil in it and it just pooled in the KKK turbocharger at idle. Garage said " Porsche say Mobil 1 for every model". This was the original totally synthetic oil. I pointed out that they did a 10W 60 version for classic cars. "Oh" they said. and changed it. They also messed up the handling becuase the checked and adjusted the rear geometry. I could tell it was out using a bit of string. "No our laser machine say it's correct" I pointed to the "S2" on the print out. My car was a Series 1…..

I don't trust most garages.

Robert.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Some cars have a non return valve built into the filter to prevent drain back into sump when not running. If you get a pattern filter without the valve it takes a long time for the oil warning light to go out. The car parts chap wasn't over impressed when I dumped an oily filter on his counter and demanded a refund, but he had to pay up, not fit for purpose. I now always buy manufacturers filter.

[Chris Pearson 1Participant @chrispearson1]

Posted by Martin Johnson 1 on 18/07/2023 13:03:03:

As far as I know, most motor oil is based on vegetable stock.

You may be thinking of Castrol R oils, which should never ever be mixed with mineral oils.

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Posted by Grindstone Cowboy on 19/07/2023 17:16:58:

Posted by John MC on 19/07/2023 11:57:30:

Posted by Mark Rand on 15/07/2023 23:08:52:

Posted by Grindstone Cowboy on 15/07/2023 22:26:25:

I do an oil and filter change once a year, just before the MOT – this is usually about 8 to 10 thousand miles for me. A mechanic friend told me it helps lower the emissions for the test

Rob

I hope you don't use him as a mechanic…

Why do you think we have low ash content oils (SAPS)?

Not having a clue what they are, I'd never thought about it at all

A quick Google gives me the impression they are for diesel engines – I've never had a diesel.

I guess the validity of the theory could be proved fairly easily by doing an emissions test on a car with old, dirty oil, changing it and then repeating the test. Anyone with free access to an MOT-grade emissions tester?

Rob

Diesel and now petrol have particulate filters so good for both. Engines pass oil in to the combustion chamber in minute amounts, not blue smoke amounts, hopefully! This will have some effect on emission tests, virtually nothing if the engine is in good condition, more so as the engine wears. Oils can also have an effect on valve seat life.

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

Posted by mgnbuk on 19/07/2023 13:55:24:

WRT to your time taken to get oil flow in a rebuilt engine – did you repeat the excercise later on after all the pump / filter / galleries had been filled from empty to get a better idea of how long it took to see flow from a "normal, after standing" condition ? I would not expect subsequent starts to take any where near as long to see flow, as the system would not have drained down to an "as rebuilt" dry condition with standing ? It took several seconds for the oil light to extinguish on first start after a recent oil & filter change on my motorhome, but the light goes out almost instantaneously on subesquent starts, regardless of how long the engine has been stood.

No, but I realise it would not take as long with an already fully primed oil system, or on restarting an engine a few minutes after stopping, but 20s is no time really, and I generally start the engine before putting the seat belt on, after which I am ready to go and I can be certain the oil is circulating. I like to treat engines with respect.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Back to the original question, yes the oil should be changed. Even if the oil itself is in perfect condition, and the additives that control viscosity with temperature and what happens in the cylinder haven't deteriorated, there's another reason. Problem is low-mileage cars tend to collect water inside the engine due to condensation. Getting the engine hot for long enough is the best way of getting rid of water, otherwise draining the system is the only way it can leave, if then!

Left alone water and oil are whipped into an emulsion that can block oil passages, cause corrosion and rapidly wear bearings.

Might be interesting for anyone who has a car full of ancient oil to drop the sump and have a look inside. I'd expect them to find a layer of goo stuck to the bottom.

Questions like 'Do you need an oil change with less than 10,000 miles in 10 years?' don't have black and white answers. Too much depends on the circumstances. A car kept in controlled storage might be fine, whilst the same model kept in a single skin concrete garage might be trashed. The type of oil makes a difference. The sort of journeys taken are a major factor: ten 100 mile trips per year will be much better for the engine than two hundred 5 mile trips per year.

Personally, I wouldn't take the risk. It's usually safer to follow the manufacturers guidelines than to take advice off an internet forum. Not even a mechanically minded one like this!

Dave

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

Many years ago when I was running my Scimatar some -à-èàk miles a year, I was persuaded to invest in a bypass filter – I don't recall from where but I am fairly sure it was a US supplier. This had a take-off connection on the oil pressure tapping and it fed a significant sized filter that was capable of extracting particles at least an order of magnitude smaller than the main filter. The idea was that it slowly filtered all of the small stuff in the background and left the main filter to get on with it. From (probably faulty) memory, it was supposed to last 100k miles, but they were £25 to replace – so an order of magnitude more than the standard filter.

I installed it after an oil change and watched the oil over the years – certainly for some significant period the oil remained clear or at least much cleaner than it had. The company also had an analysis option but arms and legs were involved I recall.

On a seperate note, my V8 Aston engine required an oil change every 2500 miles….standard 20/50 or whatever spec it was supposed to be went in 'oily' and used to drain out after 2500 miles in a much thinner state – I was told that the combined tolerances and surfaces were able to tear the viscous long chain molecules into runny short chain ones. No idea if it was true but changing to a suitable full synthetic cured that issue.

Simon

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Simon0362 on 20/07/2023 14:12:27:

Many years ago when I was running my Scimatar some -à-èàk miles a year, I wa

….

Simon

Back much before the Scimitar, many engines relied only on a bypass filter. They were good enough in the day, but not with precision thin-walled shells. They also revved much more slowly than a more modern engine!

Your bypass filter was likely of AMSOIL origin. They were (and still are) used with large truck engines, particularly in the USA, where the oil is regularly sampled and tested – and likely not changed in many thousands of miles. Testing, of course would soon flag up any excessive wear in the engine and likely direct the repairers to the specific wearing/worn parts.

[Bruce VoelkerdingParticipant @brucevoelkerding91659]

my Father had a 1968 Ford Galaxy with a 302 V8 here in the US. He had a habit of starting the Engine before going to Bed, "to be sure it would start in the Morning". He had to have a Car to commute to Work. One cold Morning (~ -10 deg F), when he tried to start the Car (by now it had 125k Miles on it), there were strange Noises and would not start. After the Mechanic at the local Dealership learned of his "night-time Start", he told my Father it was the worst thing he could do to the Engine. Since he did not allow the engine to thoroughly heat up, water condensate was everywhere inside the Engine including the Oil. During the Night the Water would freeze and that meant Valve Stems, Valve Lifters, and Cam Shaft could be stuck. What happened was the Timing Chain skipped over the partially worn plastic Sprocket on the Cam Shaft. Once the Cam Shaft was out of Position, a few Valve Stems were bent. Luckily no Piston were cracked.

My last Job Posting required me to drive 100 Miles one-way to get to the Manufacturing Plant. I made that Trip 3 to 5 times a week. The Oil in that Car always looked pristine. Although I have no real Proof, the Car always seemed to use less Gas after an Oil Change. Perhaps the Oil did break down over time.

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

Your bypass filter was likely of AMSOIL origin. They were (and still are) used with large truck engines, particularly in the USA, where the oil is regularly sampled and tested – and likely not changed in many thousands of miles. Testing, of course would soon flag up any excessive wear in the engine and likely direct the repairers to the specific wearing/worn parts.

 

NDIY – spot on – AMSOIL were the guys

(and that should be 50-60k miles, just forgot my AZERTY keyboard!)

Edited By Simon0362 on 20/07/2023 16:00:25

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

Yes, if you start a car engine, it is best to run it for a minimum of, say, 5 miles to get fully warmed through and evaporate off all the moisture.

Otherwise exhausts can rust as well as moisture remaining in the engine and the oil causing problems. And of course, the battery needs to have time to be sufficiently recharged after every start.

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