Disposal of dangerous chemicals/substances

[W J HallParticipant @wjhall48713]

In the course of clearing my mother’s garage I have found a bottle containing about 700 ml of hydrofluoric acid, fortunately in original manufacturer’s packaging and probably never opened.



Can anyone recommend a disposal company that is likely to be able to collect in Yorkshire for a reasonable cost? I assume we are looking for a company that does a regular round of small businesses.



Alternatively, does anyone in Yorkshire want 700 ml of 48 % hydrofluoric acid? Free for collection.

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 09/09/2015 11:14:36

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Clearly you already understand how nasty this stuff is.

Your local fire brigade may be willing to collect it, or your council may advise.

I strongly suggest nop-one takes up the free offer… For anyone who doesn't know how nasty this stuff is, an excerpt from a safety data sheet:

Exposure Limits

OEL – 3 ppm (2.5 mg/m³); STEL – 6 ppm (5 mg/m³)

Hazards:

1. HF attacks glass, concrete, some metals and organic compounds.
2. HF gas is extremely acidic. Hydrofluoric acid causes severe damage to living tissue with fluoride ions being rapidly absorbed through the skin and able to migrate through and destroy tissue until they are eventually sequestered in the bone. HF damage causes LONG TERM EXCRUCIATING PAIN and burns that are slow to heal. Burns around the fingertips are reputed to be particularly painful and may require the surgical removal of fingernails
3. Fluoride ions are both acutely and chronically toxic so that even 1% solutions of HF (or metal fluorides) must be handled with great care. The ability of HF to carry fluoride ions through the skin increases greatly with increasing concentration. Thus 5% (2.5M) HF can be handled with about the same level of care that is appropriate for handling 10M H₂S0₄. Above 10% (5M) HF the dangers of handling HF increase sharply and any contact with the skin for more than a few seconds can result in latent burns which may take hours before they start to cause pain. (Manufacturers commonly supply HF as 48% (28M) solution and it may be supplied as strong as 73% (44M). Handling HF of these concentrations is FAR MORE DANGEROUS than handling other common concentrated acids.)
4. Exposure to concentrations, above 50% will cause immediate pain, between 20% and 50% will cause pain up to 8 hours later, less than 20% may cause pain up to 24 hours later.

For the record 10M H2SO4 is twice as concentrated as battery acid…

Neil

[Chris DentonParticipant @chrisdenton53037]

Yes it can kill you from skin contact. You've got enough there to kill, if you transport it in a car make sure it's in it sealed container, in a sealed (remove air) bag then in another container preferably in the boot in-case of any car accident etc.

There are companies that will take this away, it's not cheap though. Although if it's in a sealed container it might be cheaper. Also worth ringing local anodising companies to see if they are interested in taking it, it's used in chemical brightening of aluminium. It can also be used to etch aluminium and titanium.

Some companies also use it to pickle stainless steel, so worth asking blasting companies.

Don't give it to anyone who doesn't seem sure about it.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

As hydrofluoric acid attacks glass, why is it in a bottle? Maybe not hydrofluoric?

[W J HallParticipant @wjhall48713]

Yes, I have should not have offered it with the casual assumption that people who might want it would know what it was, and be used to dealing with it. I apologise for this carelessness.

If Neil's description is not enough, there are plenty of graphic descriptions of injuries on the web.

John Hall

[W J HallParticipant @wjhall48713]

I assume it is a plastic bottle. It has the manufacturer's original label, and I read it three times to make sure I had not misunderstood what it said.

John

[Chris DentonParticipant @chrisdenton53037]

Always worth speaking to the supplier if it's written on the label and seeing if they want it back.

[W J HallParticipant @wjhall48713]

Council were my first thought, and they do not take it. Thank you for the Fire Brigade suggestion. They are horrified at the prospect of having anything to do with it, but have named a couple of companies in the area that they have used themselves.

John

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Assuming it's not HYDROCHLORIC ACID I would contact your local fire brigade. You really don't want to have anything to do with that stuff. Any exposure should be treated as a medical emergency.

Judging from the other posts I guess you have already got the message anyhow.

It would be interesting to know how you got on for future reference.(apart from knowing you are still with us).

regards Martin

[Anonymous]

John: It would be interesting to know why your mother had a bottle of it in the first place. I don't know if it has any domestic applications?

I've used HF acid once, to etch a steel welding sample prior to polishing. I used it with the help of a tutor, and it was rubber all round, gloves, boots, apron and a full face mask. Nasty stuff.

Andrew

[W J HallParticipant @wjhall48713]

I read the label three times, the last time for the specific purpose of checking that I had not misread it. I will let you know what happens. I expect to be quite safe, because I am now in Bristol and the bottle is in Goole.

I had assumed that with the thing being of unknown age, even if it is in a BDH bottle they would not be relevant, but I have now phoned them and they are looking into it. (Like all the other companies I have contacted.) So thanks for reminding me of the possibility.

John

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

It looks like John found what I intended to post after logging in. At least it's below 60% concentration otherwise a special section of the ADR regulations apply. It will have to be a specialist company that handles it. The problems are outlined on a pdf linked to on this page

**LINK**

It would be best to be very clear about the concentration when talking to them. It might be feasible to take it too them.

It may turn out that it's "fairly" easy to transport. There would be a need to look further to find out. Chemical supply companies ship many things that need double packaging and also must be below certain amounts that can vary according to what it is.

John

–

[David CambridgeParticipant @davidcambridge45658]

A couple of decades ago my wife used to run her own jewellery business and amongst other things she used concentrated Nitric acid to etch silver. This is extraordinarily dangerous stuff, but in comparison to HF it’s a walk in the park. Anyway, after we got married and my wife moved in she put her old Jewellery stuff at the back of the garage. We then had the problem of how to get rid of the Nitric acid.

We considered giving it away but that runs the risk that you either (a) give it to a good person who does not know how dangerous it is and seriously hurts themselves or others, or (b) give it to a bad person who knows exactly how dangerous it is and seriously hurts themselves or others. Both of these scenarios are as bad as they are possible.

After much calling around I used these people to get rid of the stuff

http://www.wastecare.co.uk

I can’t remember exactly how much it cost, but it seemed a sensible fair price and I knew it was being disposed of safely. They were very professional, collected it when they said they would and with appropriate safety precautions.

David

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Mainly for KWIL but others may benefit from the information,

I have worked with HF in the past, the standard supply 'bottle' will be in high density polyethylene, one of the few materials that are able to resist attack by the acid. Going back further still I recall that the stuff was available in containers made of a material called Gutta Percha, a natural thermoplastic made from tree resins sourced in Malaya.

It used to be used with rather more abandon all those years ago for glass etching, at which it is very good and this may be the reason why Mr Hall's mother had it in the first place, dating back to a hobby interest of hers.

Brian

Edited By Brian Wood on 09/09/2015 14:04:28

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Very often chemicals can be 'deactivated' relatively easily. HF can be neutralised with Sodium Bicarbonate to pH 5.5 or above but it does involve handling the stuff which is the dangerous part. After that you can chuck it down the drain.

As I say best to get someone else to do that for you.

Martin

[DuncParticipant @dunc]

"HF can be neutralised with Sodium Bicarbonate to pH 5.5"

I expect that would be a violent chemical reaction with a lot of spatter

I would be a long distance away from the reaction vessel – PPE aside.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

As I say best to get someone else to do that for you.

Martin

[W J HallParticipant @wjhall48713]

In response to some of the further points:

I think my father may have intended to etch some glassware, but there is no evidence that he actually did so. My mother will only become aware that she owns a bottle of hydrofluoric when my sister presents the winning bid to her for payment.

It probably does come from a couple of decades back, when these things were indeed treated with more abandon.

I tried the wastecare online form a couple of days ago, without result, but with the recommendation (thank you) I have now phoned them, and they sounded the most organised so far, but until the quote comes in a couple of days I cannot know what the real outcome will be. Unfortunately collection of HF from domestic premises is a rather rare requirement, so I have not yet found anyone who can just read off a standard price list.

It is probably in transport packaging, but I do not wish to transport it.

Stonemason's apparently use it, which may be more widespread than some of the other industries, but the stuff sells at about GBP 20 / litre, so it is not going to be worth anyone going more than a mile to fetch.

Strange to say, my wife told me yesterday that her first job, back in the 70s, was research into using HF as a way of making through holes in multi-layer PCBs. I must ask her if they kept calcium gel to hand. However, she is not suffering from a nostalgic wish to meet HF again, and will probably stay south of Gloucester until it has been dealt with.

John

[michael coleParticipant @michaelcole91146]

I used to work with boiling HF in the oil industry. After use and being neutralised it all went down the lab drain. A couple of years later and the gardeners mower found a large hole in the ground just outside our window. The HF had eaten the waste pipe and quite a bit of soil.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Something over 50 years ago a school friend and I, who use to go scavenging on the council tip for bicycle parts, found an unlabelled hard rubber bottle containing acid, at least it fizzed well when dripped onto rusty oil drums. We took it home thinking that it wasn't a good idea to leave it lying there in case a less knowledgeable child found it.

A small amount was poured into a test tube with the idea of running a few tests to identify it. It rapidly became clear that it was hydroflouric acid as the test tube was etched. Living in an area of chalky soil we were able to dig a hole, partially filled it with chalk and carefully tipped the contents into it before replacing the soil.

I hope modern regulations prevent such things appearing on waste sites now!

Russell.

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

I have used HF quite a lot over the years in cleaning Granite at which it excels. I well remember the time some other Masons were using it on another part of the building a good bit away from me, and on the other side of the gable. Later on in the afternoon me skin started to itch rather like prickly heat, I thought nothing of it and carried on working. It was when I got home at night and took off me T shirt that I noticed that it now resembled a "string vest" I was full of little holes. The vapour/ mist had carried it over to where I was with the result 1 ruined T shirt !!! but at least me skin didn't resemble the T shirt.

I havn't seen it used for ages now ,so I suspect it is banned. Neolith was one trade name.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I agree with how nasty HF is. The company I used to work for several years ago used to use it when I first started to work for them, but thankfully they discontinued it's use shortly after. The laboratory still used it for many years in small quantities and about 30 years ago I asked it I could have some to try and etch a piece of glass, the lab manager gave me consent, but I had to sign a disclaimer to say that the company would not be liable for any injury to anyone or any damage to any property or the environment and I had to remove it from the site that day and that only and I also had to accept a tube of cream to neutralize it, should I get some on my skin. The etching did work, but I soon found out that I would have needed much more of it than I was given and the process would take longer than I had time to spare, so I gave the idea up.

Regards Nick.

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

Ok back to the OP,

Search online for liquid waste disposal companies that handle industrial liquid waste .

I work for a company here in Australia ca lled Veolia which is French owned , i'm not 100% certain but i think that name is world wide i know they used to be called Onyx and operate in the U.K so try them.

It will cost you to get rid of it but such a small quantity shouldn't cost much .

Ian

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Could you possibly dilute it with water, ( slowly adding the acid to the water and not vice-versa), then neutralize it with a mild alkaline mix made from diluted bicarbonate soda etc? Then check the pH level with one of those strips for testing swimming pool water. Once it is somewhere around 5.5 to 7pH it is pretty neutral and would possibly be safe to wash down the drain with copious water from a tap or hose etc, wouldn't it?

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