Discussion on the Future Direction of Model Engineer and Workshop

[mgnbuk]

On mgnbuk Said:

Hobby magazines that rely upon reader subitted articles are going to be a challenge for an editor to try to assemble into a something with a consistent outlook or focus – at least the likes of matorcycle magazines have press bikes to test or new model launches for something different each issue along the magazine’s themed lines and to keep staff journalists employed.

 

Good luck ! Hobby related print media has been a large & mostly enjoyable part of my life for over 50 years now & I would be very sad to see it disappear.

Nigel B.

 

Thank you for the good wishes.

I honestly think the fact that ME and MEW are largely written by hobbyists for hobbyists is a strength, and bear in mind that many ‘hobby engineers’ are actually practitioners in engineering, from jobbing engineers and vehicle restorers to academics and chartered engineers. I welcome the huge diversity of perspectives this brings, one of my main challenges as an editor is to bring a range of voices to each issue in an attempt to engage people at all stages of the hobby.

[Martin Kyte]

On Martin Kyte Said:

On IanT Said:

This touches on a different issue. It’s not one of “what we (the current subscribers) want” but surely what future subscribers might want or need?

Regards,

 

IanT

 

 

I’m pretty sure Neil’s objective will be to better please current subscribers so he keeps them and move in a direction that attracts new subscribers too.

I would suggest the ideal mix of content would reflect and relate to what people actually do in their own workshops irrespective of whether or not they buy the magazine. So both current and potential future subscribers really.

My first priority has always been and will continue to be to retain current subscribers, after all, they are the people who are already engaged!

It could be a challenge to please those strongly wedded to either ME and MEW and not both; I hope the extra pages (and the ongoing involvement of Diane Carney) will help ensure that both camps still get as much or more content to please them, even if there are two or three articles they find of limited interest.

A second priority will be to broaden our appeal; I suspect the most productive new audiences will be people who feel the exiting magazines have lacked variety, or who baulked at the cost of an annual subscription to ME. Hopefully they will find a wider ranging, bigger magazine that is monthly more attractive and engaging.

[IanT]

On IanT Said:

 

IanT – Amateur Machinist, Model Maker and Grandad

P.S. ……and unrepentant BASIC Programmer 🙂

 

Think of Python as ‘BASIC on steroids’ 🙂

[derek hall 1]

On derek hall 1 Said:

On Graham Meek Said:

When visiting a foreign land it pays to learn a bit of the lingo. We can see Wales from our sitting room window and many holidays there have given us a good vocabulary. Plus the Welsh populous are very proud of their language and delight in correcting mis-pronunciation, which we have found usually breaks the ice and the barrier. When they will usually break into English. Having a Welsh fellow apprentice gave me an appreciation of their culture.

We also found this when we visited Austria. Trying to enter the supermarket by the exit door was a quick wake-up call to read the language as well. Having a broad Forest accent is not good when trying to match a dialect with-in the said language. The locals take a delight in you having tried to learn their language. One Old lady went away laughing as we tried our Pigeon German.

Years ago before the internet the only way to learn about engineering was to get an apprenticeship, or get books from the library on the subject. I learnt Carpentry not from school but from a book by Charles Hayward. There used to be loads of Teach Yourself books. Unlike the internet, a book is usually proof read and has the benefit of correcting inappropriate wording. Thus terminology is more likely to be correct in a book.

I did find an anomaly to this in that while I called coolant “Suds”, but my wife’s Cousin who worked for Vosper’s at Southampton called it “Slurry”. Suds to him was lather, while Slurry to me was what was spread on the fields.

Before the internet we used to have Catalogues. These to are a source of terminology and also the source of things which may be used later. Very often I have been looking for something in a catalogue and something has taken my eye. That something has been stored away in the brain and has been withdrawn at a later date to save the day.

When you look for things on the internet all you get is what you are looking for. No for me Books are and always will be King.

A good starting point would be the books of the likes of Sparey, Mason, Westbury and GHT for the new comer. They will not go far wrong with these. I know because they helped me.

Regards

Gray,

 

I totally agree Gray, I would like also to add to your list of authors,  anything written by the sadly missed “Tubal Cain” aka Tom Walshaw.

Regards

Derek

My personal favourite author of the past was Edgar T. Westbury and his various pen-names (e.g. Artificer).

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Neil, the whole point of my question was the word “electrician” ! I have the first 3 years editions from 1898 and the title is “Model Engineer and AMATEUR electrician ” when did it change from this – be precise !

As for getting extra pages – NO I’M NOT I’ve paid for 2 editions a month, I’m only going to get 1, so total page count will be less. I wait with interest to see how this is to be dealt with. Noel.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

In ME that would probably have taken 6 installments over 22 pages so the series would run for approx 3months as Martin published mine in consecutive issues at my request. Now given the lesser number of words on a MEW page and Neils Liking of large photos (mine are clear and well zoomed in) then that will run to 7 or 8 installments or 8months.

 

The difference in font size and photo size between ME and MEW has been mentioned a few times. Be careful what you wish for, as a bigger font size and bigger photos means authors get paid for more pages!

Actually, there are three reasons why MEW has the bigger images and font:

1 – It’s largely what I inherited!

2 – It recognises that many of our readers struggle with small print (why we very rarely have coloured backgrounds in MEW, only today someone buttonholed me about ME’s like of black on blue).

3 – Stylistic reasons. ME has a very traditional (I’ll try not to say old-fashioned) layout, aside from colour photos a 2020s ME is very similar in layout to one from the 1980s or 90s. Compare to Model Boats which has a very modern design, often with huge amounts of picture content in comparison to text, see the sample issue here: https://issuu.com/mortons-digital/docs/mbo_17072024. MEW steers something of a middle course, trying to appear more contemporary without going the whole hog of having the heavily designed ‘visual’ approach of Model Boats.

It’s a complex issue; the layout of ME is very efficient, but the look and feel of a printed magazine needs to be appealing, as well as the content. Is this not a large part of preferring a print magazine over a digital one?

[Andy Stopford]

On Andy Stopford Said:

I don’t think it’s the case that the appeal of old-school lathe-and-mic hobby engineering is on the way out; a quick look at some YouTube stats suggests otherwise:

Joe Pie 174,000 subscribers

Blondihacks 234,000 subscribers

Ade’s Workshop 14,200 subscribers

I picked the above on the basis that all had featured traditional model steam engine build series, as well as workshop techniques, etc.

Of course, many of those subscribers will never pick up a hacksaw, but in this context it doesn’t really matter – they’re still engaged enough to watch the channel and click the subscribe button (and by no means everyone who watches subscribes), so the interest is there.

Which begs the question… what would it do for our readership if we got them to write content for the magazine?
Could we afford them? Would they consider it?

Personally I’d love to get Colin Furze to let me interview him in his workshop… but…

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I’m sure by now, followers of this thread will realise I’ve spent a LONG evening (re-)reading all your posts and comments.

Thank you for all the feedback, and for (largely) keeping the discussion civilised. It’s unfortunate that a few writers have come in for a lot of criticism; I hope it isn’t taken too personally, and I note that they also have their supporters.

Can I ask that these issues don’t continue to be flogged to death. I am most interested in what people would like to see more of; and I don’t feel that I have had as much response on this as I would like.

One observation. The ‘model engineer’ community that is served by the magazines and which we feel part of can feel like it is shrinking. Yet, as the likes of Joe Pie and Blondihacks show, there are vast army of people out there making things that would ‘count as model engineering’ who have never heard of the magazines, this forum or their local model engineering club. I would guess that ‘generic Chinese mini-lathes’ probably outnumber Myford 7-series lathe by a very large margin – even if you only count the ones actually used by hobbyists! Even my late dad had a Unimat, but he would never have called himself a Model Engineer; neither would the chap he loaned it to when he couldn’t use it or my Uncle who had a rather large Warco lathe. Then all those people who have other, allied interests? How do we convince these people that not only might ‘model engineering’ apply to their hobby, but that engaging with ‘model engineers’ might help them get more out of their hobby? I don’t have an answer to that conundrum, which is worrying, as I’ve probably spent as long worrying about it as anyone else.

Thanks for your responses so far, now ideas for the future, please!

Neil

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It’s a complex issue; the layout of ME is very efficient, but the look and feel of a printed magazine needs to be appealing, as well as the content. Is this not a large part of preferring a print magazine over a digital one?

I’m not sure how you arrive at 1/4 of the page being blank as efficient use, take another look at the images of wasted space and the specific ME I mentioned as an example as well as the images posted.

The difference in font size and photo size between ME and MEW has been mentioned a few times. Be careful what you wish for, as a bigger font size and bigger photos means authors get paid for more pages!

 

On the question of font size, do you know what proportion of subscribers take the digital option? If it is high then they have the option to zoom.

Yes I know us authors may get paid more if there is less on the page* But you still have a very limited budget so could get more content for your buck which is also good for the subscriber if the blank columns of ME can be avoided.

* actually as you don’t pay as much per page as ME I think we will be worse off. Add to that only paid once a month not twice and assuming fair author rotation longer between articles being published we will definitely not get anywhere near the same amount.

[Neil Wyatt]

On Neil Wyatt Said:

On IanT Said:

 

IanT – Amateur Machinist, Model Maker and Grandad

P.S. ……and unrepentant BASIC Programmer 🙂

 

Think of Python as ‘BASIC on steroids’ 🙂

I think of Python as a popular scripting language Neil – and I guess it must reasonably good for that. I wouldn’t know as I haven’t any needs in that area.

I use ‘Mites because they are extremely powerful, easy to learn and fast to debug. I am not a professional programmer by trade but I have tried other ’embedded programming’ options, including Microchip assembler & the Arduino IDE.

For less than £10 I can build a ‘Picomite’ that can run at over 300Mhz, has plenty of memory, a built in Editor, has on-chip Flash file storage, as well of removable 32Gb of SD card (FAT) file storage. It can support a very wide range of display and keyboard devices, as well as all common communication protocols and it’s all ‘in-language’ (e.g, no need for external #includes or Libaries required).  I can insert ‘C’ routines or PIO ‘Assembler’ if needed for speed but I have never needed to do so.

If anyone is thinking 1980’s “Retro” 8K BASIC – then think again because MMB supports not only Graphics & Comms but also Array, Matrix & Quaternion (?) Arithmetic, PIDs, RTC, AES128 encryption, FLAK, MP3 & MOD audio commands and functions covering GPS, MATHs (Log, CRC, Stats, Vector, Matrix etc), PIO Assembly, Sprites and much more (even line numbers if you want really want to use them – but I don’t)

Plus (and it’s a very big plus!) – a really good manual, a 255 page reference and user guide.

So, if I seem really enthusiastic about Picomites – it’s because I am!

I believe that there are many others here who might also want a simple and affordable control system. If you can find an existing ‘app’ for Arduino or whatever that fits your needs, then go for it. Hopefully, you won’t need to write anything new or debug it. But if you need to write a bepoke or custom solution and you have no or little prior programming experience, then I would strongly recommend looking at using the PicoMite.

I await the inevitable rebuttal.  🙂

Regards,

 

IanT

 

 

 

 

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

I’m not sure how you arrive at 1/4 of the page being blank as efficient use, take another look at the images of wasted space and the specific ME I mentioned as an example as well as the images posted.

 

On the question of font size, do you know what proportion of subscribers take the digital option? If it is high then they have the option to zoom.

 

It’s only the first page of articles in ME that lose a column all articles longer than about 2 pages in ME fit in more text.

The proportion of readers on digital is still relatively small.

[IanT]

On IanT Said

I await the inevitable rebuttal.  🙂

No rebuttal! I ‘grew up’ on BBC Basic and I still occasionally use BBC Basic for Windows which lets you use all the Windows calls and essentially do anything on a PC.

I spent years programming AVRs in assembler (even wrote a Basic interpreter and a graphic driver based on the BBC VDU codes for them – a BBC Micro on two AVRs! The VDU driver comes in handy for adding graphics interfaces to my projects, although iot’s a long while since I did any embedded electronics).

Personally, I say use whatever you are comfortable with and makes you productive, but don’t be blinkered about trying new things. I eventually dabbled in Arduinos and got to grips with C which would have made all my adventures in assembler quicker, but less fun.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Some more information on the forthcoming changes. Mortons agree that a comprehensive reader survey will be a good thing. We will be able to reach a much wider cross-section of readers (far less than 1% of readers have participated in this thread!)

It will also allow us to gather balanced feedback on what people think of different articles and aspects of both magazines. In a week or two we plan to have links to the survey on here and also sent out to readers.

But please keep your ideas coming.

Here’s another question…

What sort of cover images and information would tempt you to pick up a copy of the magazine if you don’t already?

Neil

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

I understand where Jason is coming from with his comments on the page design of ME.  There is though, an art (maybe even a science!) to designing the look of magazines to retain engagement of the reader.  While existing subscribers may prefer a more austere, content heavy approach new readers need to be engaged to become subscribers.

I note the death of Harold Hall, surely “a good life, well led” at 91.  One of the many good ideas that Harold had was to have a second, separate workshop with fairly basic machine tools ( I seem to remember a Hobbymat lathe) so he could demonstrate how to achieve good work with simple equipment.

An interview, maybe even a cover story, with Blondihacks might be  welcome.  Quinn sometimes mentions the way that we do stuff in the UK and is aware of the history. Indeed, she started her most recent video with an item about the, sadly, late Cherry Hill. She might even be flattered to be on the cover of ME&W.  This might bring in some readers who know her from Youtube but were unaware of the existence of ME or MEW.

On a more general point, I get the feeling that there is a reluctance among some of the potential readership of the new ME&W to be associated with the word “model” since it alludes (in their minds) to toys and “playing with trains”.  They prefer to be associated with more “manly” pastimes such as mending motor cycles and making knives or guns.  I hope I’m wrong.  History demands that “Model Engineer” continues.

All the best,

Rod

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

My comment just posted in the Subscriptions thread may be at odds to your last paragraph Rod!

I know there is a wish from Mortons to use the well established “Model Engineer” title that they paid for but in reality it is sales of Model Engineer that have dropped off the most and I see the new Mag as MEW incorperating an additional 16pages of ME type content so the question is if the Model was failing to draw in subscribers than whey make it the main feature of the new title.

And Yes I am far more of a model maker than workshop type guy but if the workshop is what people are subscribing for then that is where the mag needs to be focusing.

I see we have contributors to ME now posting their latest build on Youtube and selling drawings etc via Patreon so now that is really the competition. And frankly I have watched more of that youtube series than I read in the mag of their previous builds.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I was in two minds about posting this link, but the document is in the public-domain, and I think the text of the Strategic Report is relevant to the current discussion

… [the financials are of no particular interest or relevance]

Go to https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03676192/filing-history

and download the ‘Full accounts made up to 31 January 2024’

MichaelG.

[WearyParticipant @weary]

Neil,

I am a long-time ME magazine subscriber and (largely) a loco builder.  I would still like there to be loco-build articles in the new Model Engineer & Workshop magazine.   However I would prefer these to be far ‘punchier’ than the recent (and present) loco build articles.  Basically locomotives are nearly all detail variations on a theme!  Luker’s articles were excellent focussing on methods for particular parts of his builds, but could have been made still more ‘to the point’ in my opinion.   With back-issues available in hard-copy and on-line, ‘the basics’ (wheel turning is a classic example) need not be covered, but relevant previous issues, or purpose-made or even ‘generic’ youtube videos could be referenced.   Even (loco) cylinders can be covered by reference to a suitable stationary engine series as the machining processes and techniques are often similar.  The order of boiler construction could be covered in the magazine in a brief list if it is felt necessary rather than any detail beyond that.

As regards loco drawings in the magazine then I would suggest that the boiler needs to be covered, along with a general arrangement, but actually much (all?) of the rest could be supplied elsewhere unless it is directly referred-to in the core article – see also next para’.

I realise that these (potential) brief articles significantly reduce authors remuneration but with Jason’s suggestion, and (for example) Luker’s practice, of links to the author selling plans and additional material directly (downloads/USB, etc.) surely ‘something’ could be worked-out?   Maybe even involving castings suppliers ‘sponsoring’ a brief series or two?

By its’ nature building a loco takes years (well for me anyway!), but the relevant written article doesn’t need to do-so with aggressive editing.

I also occasionally build stationary steam engines and think that the same process could be applied to them, though the ‘beginner’s’ articles covering greater detail would be far more useful here as these are seemingly more popular than locos.

As a final note (for the moment!): ‘armchair modellers’ are much disparaged on this forum and elsewhere, however I would suggest that they could be an important target market for your magazine.   Casual observation suggests to me that few on this forum actually build anything (just my opinion!) and yet, at least superficially, this appears to be the busiest ‘model engineering’ forum.   In the same vein that few women dress like the models in Vogue magazine and yet it has a good circulation (albeit declining significantly in recent years) maybe the ‘aspirational’ model engineer is a good target.  Cannot suggest a way to target ‘armchair modellers’ (aspiring model engineers??) – so just a thought.

Anyway: Regards & good luck with the new mag’,

Phil

 

 

[Weary]

On Weary Said:

[…] As a final note (for the moment!): ‘armchair modellers’ are much disparaged on this forum and elsewhere, however I would suggest that they could be an important target market for your magazine.   […]

A very good point, Phil

Surely the word that would best describe a successful magazine is ‘Aspirational’

MichaelG.

 

[IanT]

On IanT Said:

On Neil Wyatt Said:

On IanT Said:

 

IanT – Amateur Machinist, Model Maker and Grandad

P.S. ……and unrepentant BASIC Programmer 🙂

 

Think of Python as ‘BASIC on steroids’ 🙂

I think of Python as a popular scripting language Neil – and I guess it must reasonably good for that. I wouldn’t know as I haven’t any needs in that area.

…
Regards,

 

IanT

 

 

 

 

And Ian is straight off the rails!  After incorrectly dismissing Python as a ‘scripting language’, he’s still hard selling MicroBASIC.

In previous exchanges with Ian, I explained Python was ‘Batteries Included’.  Neil expresses the same idea with ‘Think of Python as BASIC on steroids“.    We’re trying to explain Python is in a different league!

Only one good reason for BASIC.   It’s when the programmer already knows BASIC and doesn’t want to learn anything new.   Otherwise BASIC should be avoided, especially by newcomers and by programmers who might have to write complicated code on different platforms.

Just to put my mind at rest, can Ian confirm he has no commercial or family connection with Micromite?  (Product placement is a forum no-no: commercial adverts have to be paid for.  And trust degrades when glowing product reviews turn out to have been written by an easily pleased relative! )

Dave

 

[Arthur Jones 2Participant @arthurjones2]

Hi again all,

Lots of ground has been covered in the past couple of weeks, and Phil/Weary (a few posts ago) makes several points, which I largely agree with.  A few extra points occur to me:

1. It’s noted that long multi-article series on loco builds don’t seem to be popular (even though I as a relative beginner learn plenty from them).  With the reduction of frequency from every two weeks (for ME) to every month, it seems clear that these kinds of articles are definitely no longer viable as they’d take far too long to run to completion in the new magazine.

2. Following on from (1), an observation that no-one seems to have made is that it is relative beginners who need a full “words and music” description of a build.  These are exactly the people who (in most cases) should not be tackling something like an exhibition-quality complex model!  A raw beginner is likely to be outfaced by such a project and may well just get discouraged and give up model engineering altogether, despite initial outlay.  By contrast, an experienced builder (or perhaps a time-served craftsperson getting into model engineering) will (I guess) generally be able to work out the best way to make each part using their particular skill set and workshop facilities, working only from the (model engineering) drawings, and will not need a blow-by-blow description of the processing steps suggested by one particular builder.  (There will always be exceptions of course for some components where they have been designed with a particular process in mind).

3. So again following on, I think we need two kinds of build series:

a) Short snappy ones covering simple projects, whether they are relatively simple locos (e.g. the Rob Roy-based pannier tank loco) or relatively/moderately simple stationary engines of whatever fuel cycle.  Maybe duplication with similar overlapping projects in the past can be minimised by referring back to those build descriptions (e.g. the Rob Roy book) but I realise that’s a moot point.

b) Equally concise ones covering the highlights and interesting features of exhibition-quality designs/builds but only the aspects where something unusual or ingenious has been done (I’m thinking of the use of laser-cut interlocking parts for the A3 reversing stand, for example), and/or to showcase a new design.  Much has been said on the ways of making the drawings available – I guess there are various routes which would need to be chosen then stated clearly in the article (QR code to downloadable drawings, drawings sold by one of the model engineering suppliers etc., possibly drawings sold by Sarik Hobbies etc.).  I don’t know how the business and intellectual property aspects work in those cases.

4. I’m afraid I don’t think there is any scope for long series on general engineering topics which are not really related to model making or home workshops – I agree the best place for those is a book.

5. There may still be some scope for something like “Jeynes’s Corner” i.e. something far more concise and focused on engineering than the “general chat” articles that have bulked out ME in the past few years.  Ted Jeynes always seemed to have something informative and interesting to say on an engineering topic, even if it wasn’t always focused on model engineering per se.  (The limiting factor is the availablility of a suitable columnist!).  But Ted’s articles were (guess what) relatively short, snappy and to-the-point.  I’m afraid I agree that the “general chat” series have absolutely no place in the new magazine, and I think that point has been amply made by others.

6. It is up to us as his readers and community to provide Neil with the material he is clearly going to need to make the new magazine a success.  Good luck to him – I hope it proves to be a rewarding challenge rather than a poisoned chalice.

Just to reiterate, i currently take ME and MEW, nearly dropped MEW, intend to continue with ME&W but (if I can work out how!) intend to make sure I don’t get The Railway magazine as a substitute second magazine.

Kind regards and a belated happy New Year to all

Arthur

[IanTParticipant @iant]

There you are Dave – I knew you couldn’t resist!

Geoff Graham (an Aussie) developed the original Maximite (PIC32) system using a varient of MS Basic and it was published in Silicon Chip (an Australian electronics magazine) in 2012.

Geoff tells the story here:  https://geoffg.net/Maximite_Story.html

There have been many different varients of MMB based systems since then but Peter Mather (based here in UK) ported MMB to the Pico within a few weeks of the Pico becoming available. There is a team of contributers who provide other input in terms of hardware design, beta testing and proof reading of manuals etc.

Strangely (unlike myself) many of these ‘contributors’ seem to be ‘professional’ programmers, who don’t share your aversion to Basic. In fact they clearly enjoy using it.

I can recall “professional machinsts” who have described Myfords as “Toys” (or being “Toylike”). I’m sure that from their perspective they had a point but a lot of excellent work has still been done on Myfords over the years. Don’t you think your ‘professional’ distain for Picomites might not just have a little touch of professional snobbery about it?  🙂

Anyway, to directly answer your question you can download the Mite software and documentation for free and always have been able to do so. I have no commercial or family links to MMB, Geoff, Peter or any of the other very helpful people at the BSF – but of course you already knew that. I’m just a very happy MMB user, who firmly believes that many here would benefit if they just looked a little bit closer at the Picomite – and of course if some here were not quite so dismissive of it’s capabilites.

You are very helpful on this forum to people with software problems Dave (often Arduino programmes with #include issues i might add) and I am sure people are very grateful for your assistance. Fortunately, I don’t need your help (MMB doesn’t use #includes for a start) but frankly I don’t need you always telling me (and others here) that I’m doing something stupid.  I have tried a few ‘controller’ alternatives and having found one that works very well for me, I’m going to stick with it (and share it).

Have a Happy New Year,

Regards,

 

IanT

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

1/ Cover photo: Must be relevant to content and preferably of the content using the opportunity to provide a useful high resolution picture of a relevant complex part (not just yet another picture of a random bit of iron being turned on a Myford).
NO PEOPLE unless incidental in the background. A major flaw with so many youtube videos is the self important fat old bloke talking to camera which even his mother doesn’t want to see. That includes pictures of girls – there are better sites for that.
Text on cover must not be misleading. If the series is not the very first instalment it must say “continues” or equivalent.

So wrt latest ME issue 4759. Beam engine picture good, but title should have indicated it was end of a series. Dads dancing very bad (the article itself on clubs was ok but the dancing bit should have been a single short paragraph.) What’s that lorry picture about? I’m still looking for the build series. “Getting a pannier onto its wheels” means nothing to most people but “Pannier build part 8″ could be useful information.

2/ Builds must contain all the drawings and relevant information. I have a part built engine serialised in detail in a different magazine 40 years ago but the original supplier of drawings no longer supports it. Internet resources seldom last a decade. Paper lasts and I have the magazines (it was the reason I subscribed to it all those years ago)
While I never needed the instructions in the Meccano books and just built from the picture I have met a surprising number of people who had to follow the text word for word. A balance will be needed.

3/ Cover again. For goodness sake can we have the issue number in the top left corner and 1/2” high. That way in a pile on the floor or in a bookcase a particular one can more easily be found and a collection sorted. I had to get out a magnifying glass before I could enter the issue number above.

[IanT]

On IanT Said:

There you are Dave – I knew you couldn’t resist!

🙂

…
I can recall “professional machinsts” who have described Myfords as “Toys” (or being “Toylike”). I’m sure that from their perspective they had a point but a lot of excellent work has still been done on Myfords over the years. Don’t you think your ‘professional’ distain for Picomites might not just have a little touch of professional snobbery about it?  🙂

No, emphatically not.  I’m an ex-professional programmer who’s been paid to write code in many different languages, including 3 or 4 commercial BASICs, plus it was all that was available on most home computers for several years, me starting with a Nascom 1.  The damage done by BASIC was a common topic back in the day.  The press was full of it, reports written, and – rather usefully – lessons learned from BASICs design problems.     Software Engineers know all about BASIC – it’s not just me!

I have no commercial or family links to MMB, Geoff, Peter or any of the other very helpful people at the BSF – but of course you already knew that.

No I did not know that – I asked with my Moderator hat on.  Delighted to hear you are just a very happy MMB user, not an ‘influencer’.  Would be fireworks if you were.

 

…

You are very helpful on this forum to people with software problems Dave (often Arduino programmes with #include issues i might add) and I am sure people are very grateful for your assistance.

Thanks for that, everything I write is intended to help.

Fortunately, I don’t need your help (MMB doesn’t use #includes for a start)

Sadly you do Ian, or at least the folk who might be tempted by your recommendations.  They deserve to know BASIC is controversial so they can read it up and decide for themselves.  Oh, and when needed, #include is a very good thing.  Essential to complex builds involving teams, less so in tiny projects.

 

but frankly I don’t need you always telling me (and others here) that I’m doing something stupid.

Not stupid, the problem is poor advice given due to a partial understanding of computer languages.  I never attack individuals, only tool issues, and factual or logic errors.  Here I’m warning there’s a problem with BASIC.   Why take it personally when the shortcomings of a tool are pointed out?

 

I have tried a few ‘controller’ alternatives and having found one that works very well for me, I’m going to stick with it (and share it).

It’s only sharing misconceptions I have a problem with.  Don’t care what Model Engineers do in private!  My advice that BASIC is bad is aimed at others who might fall for Ian’s enthusiasm.  Anyone reading this is advised to avoid BASIC as a learning language.  As I’ve said repeatedly, the only good reason for using BASIC is already knowing it.  That’s fine.  Otherwise, avoid.   No-one has to take my advice.

By the way, if anyone is interested, I could explain what’s wrong with Algol, COBOL, LISP, Pascal, FORTRAN, Filetab, C, C++, assembler, SQL, Java, Javascript, Perl, Ada, Forth and half a dozen databases/4GLs circa 1990.  Ada is a particularly interesting case study.   And Python, though pretty good, also has problems.  No computer language is perfect!

Have a Happy New Year,

Regards,

 

IanT

Ditto

Dave

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Guys,

Please take your little language spat elsewhere, its too far off topic for this important discussion of the future of the magazine in my opinion.

Rod

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Totally agree with Rod, grow up and act your age.

[Author]

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